Finland’s basic income plan could change everything • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#141

Post by CountSessine » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

istjohn wrote: post #119

CountSessine wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, those 5 million additional people probably aren't going to sit around doing nothing. That's not how human nature works, either - most people are happier doing something rather than nothing! Self actualization and all that. This is really the core assumption behind Marxism; perhaps not so much the sclerotic centrally-planned dictatorship of the proletariat 'Marxism' we saw in the 20th century as the…

Un-monetized self-motivation is not required, here. They would be have the opportunity to earn above and beyond the basic income. It's not Marxist or communal at all. We are not talking about abolishing work for pay. We are simply talking about an un-earned payment in addition to whatever they earn in conventional jobs.

The previous poster made the point,

On the other hand, those 5 million additional people probably aren't going to sit around doing nothing. That's not how human nature works, either - most people are happier doing something rather than nothing! Self actualization and all that.

I don't think that it's completely relevant to the BI debate, but what if everyone actually did just decide to sit around doing nothing?

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#142

Post by ashark » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #137

vinceguidry wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how that could possibly fly, politically. Everybody who works has to pay for everybody who doesn't want to work to just fuck around.

It's not qualitatively different than what we have now.

Also, everyone gets the checks. Some workers' parents will be living off them. Their kids in college. Their cousin who was crippled in a car wreck. It's not like they won't know people benefiting who aren't exactly lazy freeloaders.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#143

Post by e40 » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:17 PM UTC

dawnbreez wrote: post #66

lukev wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so. If it were socially acceptable for an artist, scientist or entrepreneur to fall back on "welfare" for some amount of time to work on a project, improve themselves or bootstrap a startup, I think you'd see that more often (including outcomes that end up contributing back to society. Which is…

>Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so Debatable. In the US, many welfare programs are designed to cut off anyone who actually gets a job...even if that job pays less than what you'd get from welfare. This problem gets even bigger as you factor in the fact that multiple welfare programs exist, making it nigh-impossible to preven…

The GP was talking about social incentives. You're talking about monetary incentives. Different things. I agree with the GP. There is a real stigma about being on welfare. Someone close to me would rather be homeless than be on welfare. Homeless in the sense that he sleeps on people's couches, and has for several months.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#144

Post by jsprogrammer » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

I think an important step is to identify the critical pieces of work that need to occur in order to maintain whatever standard of living a basic income is expected to provide. Then, you need to somehow ensure that the work that is needed to be done is actually done.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#145

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:21 PM UTC

Fun to see an article here from Business for Scotland, a pro-Scottish independence group.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#146

Post by bdamm » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:21 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #86

Why wouldn't inflation swell up to soak up the UBI? If I'm a landlord in a poor(er) area of town, charging $500/mo for an apartment, and UBI is $1000/mo, then why shouldn't I raise my rent to, say $1000/mo because my tenants now have extra money? (Ignore rent-control for now).

Indeed this would seem to be the case. I don't know how well this translates to a country like Finland, where there are a lot of social programs/controls in place already. I would really like to see a strong analysis of the inflation consequences of UBI.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#147

Post by Alupis » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:23 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #134

Alupis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question how a "BI" can be paid for long-term. Presumably BI is taxed like any other income, but of course that means the amount of tax revenue collected will not balance the amount of money paid to citizens... unless we really raise the rates on "wealthy" people (who's definition may shift if everyone is provided a free "comfortable" standard of living). In which case this "BI" becomes a Robbin Hood tax on the nat…

Are those people you mention actually productive now? Most of the people I know who would do nothing are already doing nothing.

> Are those people you mention actually productive now?

Well, kind of, but only enough to pay rent and eat.

But that's my point, individuals like this, who only work the bare minimum to just keep existing and have no drive or motivation to achieve more, are very likely to just not work anymore at all since their basic needs are now provided.

At the moment, they at least work somewhat. This helps keep local businesses running (even if just barely). With a BI, these folks stop all production and resort to their ideal lifestyle of not doing anything.

It's a little naive to think these individuals will suddenly change in light of all this new-found free time, and run out to create businesses or new things.

We can examine lottery jackpot winners for evidence of what many people would do if they didn't have to worry about money anymore (they do nothing in large part).

I just don't see any scenario where a BI leads to increased productivity like what is being claimed.

In contrast, I can foresee unemployment rates increasing, as fewer individuals participate in the workforce at all (to no determent of themselves, since their standard of living is provided free of cost). This will ultimately put strain on the system since not enough production is happening to offset this behavior, which will lead to drastic measures like dramatically increasing tax rates more and more.

I just don't buy the argument that giving someone a free living without any expectation of productivity in return will lead to a net increase in productivity.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#148

Post by ctolsen » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #128

stevesearer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more speaking to what I believe is the inevitability of some people making bad decisions (like buying a bunch of powerball tickets or betting your money at the racetrack or something.) with the money they receive and then not being able to afford the basics. There would obviously be many people who are benefitted by BI, but my question is more wondering what happens to the percentage of people that end up still n…

I question how a "BI" can be paid for long-term. Presumably BI is taxed like any other income, but of course that means the amount of tax revenue collected will not balance the amount of money paid to citizens... unless we really raise the rates on "wealthy" people (who's definition may shift if everyone is provided a free "comfortable" standard of living). In which case this "BI" becomes a Robbin Hood tax on the nat…

Many people tend to think of BI as a solution to a world where scarcity is no longer that much of an issue. In a world where a lot of wealth is created by automation, the picture starts to look different, to the extent that BI becomes not just desirable, but inevitable. At that point, it shouldn't matter too much if those people choose to stay unproductive.

But even now, while those people may not produce, they would certainly still have to consume. So there is some economic activity created. The question, of course, is whether it's enough to support the greater economy and if the incentives to do extra work are good enough.

Also, I sincerely doubt that these people you talk about are the norm. As mentioned in the article, there's certainly evidence that people may tend to get more education, act more creatively, and pursue productivity at a higher rate when they are removed from the fear of poverty – likely because basic needs are met and aren't a primary source of stress.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#149

Post by kaybe » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:37 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #39

mschuster91 wrote: post #17

I'm worried if this will provide an incentive to rent hikes - landlords can easily raise rents by pointing out that everyone has additional 800€ per month to spend.

That would require collusion between landlords. Otherwise one landlords rent hike of $800 would be countered by another one who is only raising the rent by $750 ... etc until you get back to logical market pricing. Yes some landlords would definitely try it, but I think they'd be quickly corrected by the market.

I think it would depend on the level of demand. Just look at San Francisco..

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#150

Post by arebop » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 10:48 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #86

Why wouldn't inflation swell up to soak up the UBI? If I'm a landlord in a poor(er) area of town, charging $500/mo for an apartment, and UBI is $1000/mo, then why shouldn't I raise my rent to, say $1000/mo because my tenants now have extra money? (Ignore rent-control for now).

Inflation is generally believed to be caused by an imbalance between the quantity of money and the goods & services in the market. BI per se doesn't change the money supply; it can be done by redistribution of existing money rather than debasing the currency.