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Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

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Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#61

Post by ones_and_zeros »

gnaritas wrote: post #45
ones_and_zeros wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are whatever the electorate want them to be. Plus the modern day idea of taxes is relatively new... I mean, income tax in the US is barely 100 years old. The whole basis of the US tax system rides on the "General Welfare" clause, so really taxes provide for the general welfare (food, shelter, etc), and a basic income covers all of the general welfare bases without all of the overhead of separate agencies and re…

> The whole basis of the US tax system rides on the "General Welfare" clause No, it rides on the 16th amendment which explicitly authorized income taxes. "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

No, the US gov't was able to set taxes well well before the 16th Amendment, which as you point out, is only for income taxes. The US gov't had all sorts of taxes before the 16th Amendment and the justification for that as outlined in the US Constitution is for the general welfare.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#62

Post by vinceguidry »

gnaritas wrote: post #32
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

> he idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital could rise out of nowhere and carry us all into a new age. That is not at all what basic income is about. The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and sol…

> The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and solution to a problem, the problem of ever increasing automation removing the need for human labor.

I disagree. Humans tend to create new market segments in response to this problem. Service jobs, creative jobs, people are remarkably effective at finding ways to be productive. Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive.

Do you seriously think automation means less human labor is needed? I can think of dozens of segments out there that could really use more human capital.

Automation means less labor is needed to produce certain kinds of goods. We can always find things for people to do.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#63

Post by mikeash »

vinceguidry wrote: post #44
mikeash wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People still like to have more money. A job might well look more attractive if your basic needs are already covered and so you can afford to only work part time, for example. And it will certainly look more attractive if there's no monetary threshold you can cross that will yank your government benefits.

I'm not opposed to basic income, and I do agree that the dynamics you're presenting might actually happen, in some cases for some people. I think though, that it's going to wind up being Just Another Government Program, if it were to be implemented in the US. There's just not enough money around to give everyone an income of more than maybe a thousand dollars a month. You'd need to really change how government financ…

I don't understand what you mean by "wind up being Just Another Government Program."

$1,000/month seems like a highly reasonable amount. It's more than Finland is proposing.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#65

Post by Ao7bei3s »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

Unemployment benefits just aren't like basic income. At all.

1. They're barely enough to feed yourself and pay for rent, if even. Nothing more.

2. The authorities keep you busy filing paperwork and sending applications for awful jobs. Don't meet your quota, miss a deadline, don't make a meeting, or refuse any job (even if quite beneath your qualification), and your benefits are cut.

3. If you're unemployed, long-term planning is impossible.

4. Higher education is not available. Job training may or may not be.

I suspect that most unemployed are by and large less educated -- so what do you expect? Basic income would allow education. And that may, as you put it, carry us into a new age.

Disclaimer: I only know about the situation in Germany, and only from (educated, but not IT) acquaintances, not personal experience.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#66

Post by dawnbreez »

lukev wrote: post #28
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so. If it were socially acceptable for an artist, scientist or entrepreneur to fall back on "welfare" for some amount of time to work on a project, improve themselves or bootstrap a startup, I think you'd see that more often (including outcomes that end up contributing back to society. Which is…

>Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so

Debatable. In the US, many welfare programs are designed to cut off anyone who actually gets a job...even if that job pays less than what you'd get from welfare. This problem gets even bigger as you factor in the fact that multiple welfare programs exist, making it nigh-impossible to prevent that drop from being catastrophic.

This is a major incentive to stay on welfare.

Meanwhile, with a BI, a person who seeks a job will earn more money than one who does not. That's it. No complicated math involved, not even subtraction; a guy who works will have more money than one who does not.

Assuming all the participants want more money, the second set of rules will lead to more work than the first.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#67

Post by CountSessine »

warfangle wrote: post #33
nugget wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income would become a part of the whole picture, for sure. But take Norway as an example: 5 million people and around a trillion dollars in sovereign wealth, which could yield ~ $8k per person (man, woman, and child) per year in perpetuity. All Norwegian citizens now own a share of ''Norway Inc'' as their birthright and receive a healthy dividend. Now 5 million people - that isn't a lot, and it's easy to imagin…

On the other hand, those 5 million additional people probably aren't going to sit around doing nothing. That's not how human nature works, either - most people are happier doing something rather than nothing! Self actualization and all that. So are they going to contribute as much to the sovereign wealth that funds the basic income as the citizens? And is the basic income extended to guest workers / temporary residen…

On the other hand, those 5 million additional people probably aren't going to sit around doing nothing. That's not how human nature works, either - most people are happier doing something rather than nothing! Self actualization and all that.

This is really the core assumption behind Marxism; perhaps not so much the sclerotic centrally-planned dictatorship of the proletariat 'Marxism' we saw in the 20th century as the idealized communal society that Marx envisioned, but un-monetized self-motivation is still required for either.

Does that make it wrong? I don't think so; but at least we should think carefully about how we arrange incentives for work in our shining city on the hill. Even if most people aren't working, we still need for that motivated and creative minority to be putting in some hours and to be happy about it.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#68

Post by vinceguidry »

AlexandrB wrote: post #52
lukev wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so. If it were socially acceptable for an artist, scientist or entrepreneur to fall back on "welfare" for some amount of time to work on a project, improve themselves or bootstrap a startup, I think you'd see that more often (including outcomes that end up contributing back to society. Which is…

Yes! I think you've captured the idea perfectly. It also removes much of the administrative cost of other types of welfare. Cost that's a product of highly complicated rules for who deserves how much welfare.

My point is that basic income should be treated as a welfare program, not as a stimulus package. We are bound to be disappointed in the ROI of basic income if we are looking for it to accelerate social evolution all by itself.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#69

Post by SixSigma »

xlayn wrote: post #5

This is taking the objective of taxes to an extreme: redistribution of resources from the wealthiest to the poorest. From wikipedia: "Governments also use taxes to fund welfare and public services. These services can include education systems, health care systems, pensions for the elderly, unemployment benefits, and public transportation. Energy, water and waste management systems are also common public utilities." .…

I would hardly call it an extreme. But the wealth was created by my parents and their parents before them to give the wealthy the opportunity to create wealth.

The post-work economy is coming, especially in Finland. The opportunity to create new services, digitally, with the freedom to fail but without the need for investment spent on just keeping the lights on and paying wages etc.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#70

Post by rpgmaker »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

Awful example. People can't barely get by with those govt checks (at least in the US).
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