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Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

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Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#51

Post by SixSigma »

lftl wrote: post #37
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

> Plenty of people already receive checks from the government every month that they live on. Like, a whole lot of people. There should already be a not-so-huge wave of accomplishment coming from all these people. Not to belittle them and their abilities, but there isn't. I'm not well versed in the structure of European welfare systems, but when you look at the US welfare system there are some absolutely perverse ince…

> All it would take is requiring graduated income checks so for every $1 you make more in wages you lose less than $1 of benefits.

Or just universal benefits and a progressive income tax, then you don't have to have the bureaucratic machinery of the means tested welfare state.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#52

Post by AlexandrB »

lukev wrote: post #28
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so. If it were socially acceptable for an artist, scientist or entrepreneur to fall back on "welfare" for some amount of time to work on a project, improve themselves or bootstrap a startup, I think you'd see that more often (including outcomes that end up contributing back to society. Which is…

Yes! I think you've captured the idea perfectly. It also removes much of the administrative cost of other types of welfare. Cost that's a product of highly complicated rules for who deserves how much welfare.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#53

Post by jonwachob91 »

lukev wrote: post #28
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

Except that there are strong social incentives for anyone who is capable of getting a paying job and going off welfare to do so. If it were socially acceptable for an artist, scientist or entrepreneur to fall back on "welfare" for some amount of time to work on a project, improve themselves or bootstrap a startup, I think you'd see that more often (including outcomes that end up contributing back to society. Which is…

I don't think he's referencing welfare but programs such as disability.

It's not a knock against those with serious disabilities that prevent them from working, but the individuals who sham the system to collect $3k /month in disability pay for their diabetes, and refuse to work. We ALL know someone with diabetes who doesn't sham, but there are lots who do.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#54

Post by manyoso »

rbrogan wrote: post #36

Would anyone, personally, take something like this as an opportunity to do open source work and/or research projects? Or do you feel like you want/need money as a motivator to be your most productive and a way to keep score in the game?

Yes, I would. And frankly that is a feature not a bug! It would allow people to contribute to the economy in ways that are self-motivating and not for fear of starving. And well motivated people do better work and contribute more which has been empirically validated and also common sense.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#55

Post by api »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

You can live on basic income and/or welfare, but not all that well. You'll be poor. You'll be living in a bad neighborhood or a crummy tiny apartment and won't be able to buy very much.

Most ambitious people -- the people who have personality characteristics that lead them to achieve interesting things -- want more than this. As a result, most are not willing to live exclusively on the dole.

The thing a basic income might accomplish is to allow people to make path changes. As it stands a person's well being is directly tied to their income and very few people make enough or can live debt-free enough to save enough "FU money" to take any length of time off without severely threatening their future (e.g. eating retirement savings). Basic income would allow people to take a step back and reevaluate whether their current path is best.

Welfare is needs-based not wants-based. It doesn't do that.

Personally I think a minimal basic income could go a long way toward eliminating bullshit jobs. A bullshit job is any job that if (hypothetically) eliminated while the person is still paid, nobody would be poorer in any tangible way. It's a job that does not actually need to be done and doesn't actually benefit anyone.

Since our society depends on jobs to move money around, bullshit jobs must continue to exist even when those doing them know they are doing nothing of value. Basic income would allow them to make the intelligent decision to stop doing meaningless and valueless work.

I think the experiment should be done. I'm not sure if it's going to work but there's only one way to find out.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#56

Post by fweespeech »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

> Plenty of people already receive checks from the government every month that they live on, in exchange for no real work responsibilities. Like, a whole lot of people. There should already be a not-so-huge wave of accomplishment coming from all these people.

That isn't the same as no responsibilities.

> Modern Western societies are rich enough that smart, motivated individuals can mostly rise to the level of their own ability.

Capitalism isn't a meritocracy and hasn't been for some time (if ever).

Basic income (along with other ideas intended to improve the value of human capital) helps level the field so people can focus on things like a better education, etc.

Frankly, I think we need to focus more on providing access to better education (e.g. Free community college, technical schools, bachelor degrees) with reasonable application restrictions (e.g. Fields with low demand such as many Art/soft skill majors should have caps on how many free degrees are available while fields with high demand should be uncapped).

I think that'd get us alot further than basic income would in regards to your criticism.

HOWEVER, basic income isn't primarily about improving human capital...its just one of the reasons:

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/19/5_reasons_to_consider_a_no_s...

1) Reduces poverty

2) Stabilizes aggregate demand since people who are primarily relying on it for income are going to spend it on goods/services for survival.

3) Certain social ills (e.g. Domestic abuse) are reduced as its easier to escape bad situations. Children are more likely to finish high school.

4) It is more efficient in terms of dollars spent than existing programs (except Social Security)

5) Human dignity

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#58

Post by dageshi »

vitalysh wrote: post #49
dageshi wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind there are 500 million eligible persons within the EU that may move to Finland if they choose. Once there they cannot legally be treated any differently to a Finnish native.

Not really true, if you move to Finland as EU citizen, you won't get Finnish social security right away. You have to work here to apply for it.

How would that work in the case of an unconditional basic income though? If you're not going to have a pre-requisite for native Finnish people to have had a job in order to receive it, can you have a pre-requisite for EU nationals to have a job before they can claim?

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#59

Post by andrewclunn »

The conflation of arguments against wealth redistribution and arguments against over regulation or publicly managed entitlement services is everywhere. If successful then socialists and union leaders might find themselves at odds with one another. There would then be a real practical distinction between left libertarians and right libertarians. Issues of unemployment and minimum wage will become quaint as outdated means of dealing with poverty and inequality...

Or it will fail miserably.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#60

Post by sandisk5 »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #19
xlayn wrote: post #5

This is taking the objective of taxes to an extreme: redistribution of resources from the wealthiest to the poorest. From wikipedia: "Governments also use taxes to fund welfare and public services. These services can include education systems, health care systems, pensions for the elderly, unemployment benefits, and public transportation. Energy, water and waste management systems are also common public utilities." .…

Taxes are whatever the electorate want them to be. Plus the modern day idea of taxes is relatively new... I mean, income tax in the US is barely 100 years old. The whole basis of the US tax system rides on the "General Welfare" clause, so really taxes provide for the general welfare (food, shelter, etc), and a basic income covers all of the general welfare bases without all of the overhead of separate agencies and re…

> the general welfare (food, shelter, etc)

Those are not the general welfare, they are the particular welfare of the person eating the food or living in the shelter.

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