Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

businessforscotland.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 238 posts

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#41

Post by Shivetya »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

The balance is finding the amount of assistance that reaches two points, reducing requesting even more aid and removing the tendency to want to take another persons stuff.

I believe that this is one of those long term deals, it won't be the first generation which learns to live with it but following generations will. By the third it should be entrenched and cultural norms will be that you don't another persons stuff and your needs are met.

As of right now there is too much opportunity to game the system which in itself requires a much more robust system within the government to track all the aid dollars it spends. The danger is that this will force a move away from physical money. This is because it allows government to manipulate the money you have. It leads to totalitarian control as they can simply outlaw an activity by preventing expenditures on it. So in the end the money will need to be independent of the governments as well. (it will be sold to stop terrorists, drug dealers, and other "bad" people)

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#42

Post by digitalsurgeon »

Finland is in very early stages of "just thinking about it". it probably will not be implemented. International media can not even get this story about a country in Europe right. Imagine how bad or incorrect their news reporting about "other" countries is.

source: http://yle.fi/uutiset/kela_to_prepare_basic_income_proposal/...

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#43

Post by Sharlin »

mschuster91 wrote: post #17

I'm worried if this will provide an incentive to rent hikes - landlords can easily raise rents by pointing out that everyone has additional 800€ per month to spend.

It wouldn't - and couldn't - work like that: where would the extra 5M * 800€ come from? Basically everyone would get the 800€ added to their gross income, but income tax progression would be simultaneously steepened so that in practice middle and high-income individuals would not see a change in their net income.

For low-income households Finland already has a housing allowance system. It would be one of the benefits probably obsoleted by basic income (though there are good yet-unanswered questions on eg. how to handle geographical differences in rent levels).

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#44

Post by vinceguidry »

mikeash wrote: post #34
vinceguidry wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of people, and they shouldn't be left out of the discussion. Retired people and the disabled accomplish a lot of things. It's just that these are personal accomplishments. Paying someone to not have to participate in the economic system, seems to me to force them to forever remain outside of it, unless they have a rare kind of motivation, that kind of motivation would mean they didn't need the basic inco…

People still like to have more money. A job might well look more attractive if your basic needs are already covered and so you can afford to only work part time, for example. And it will certainly look more attractive if there's no monetary threshold you can cross that will yank your government benefits.

I'm not opposed to basic income, and I do agree that the dynamics you're presenting might actually happen, in some cases for some people.

I think though, that it's going to wind up being Just Another Government Program, if it were to be implemented in the US.

There's just not enough money around to give everyone an income of more than maybe a thousand dollars a month. You'd need to really change how government finance works in order to be more generous.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#45

Post by gnaritas »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #19
xlayn wrote: post #5

This is taking the objective of taxes to an extreme: redistribution of resources from the wealthiest to the poorest. From wikipedia: "Governments also use taxes to fund welfare and public services. These services can include education systems, health care systems, pensions for the elderly, unemployment benefits, and public transportation. Energy, water and waste management systems are also common public utilities." .…

Taxes are whatever the electorate want them to be. Plus the modern day idea of taxes is relatively new... I mean, income tax in the US is barely 100 years old. The whole basis of the US tax system rides on the "General Welfare" clause, so really taxes provide for the general welfare (food, shelter, etc), and a basic income covers all of the general welfare bases without all of the overhead of separate agencies and re…

> The whole basis of the US tax system rides on the "General Welfare" clause

No, it rides on the 16th amendment which explicitly authorized income taxes.

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#46

Post by habosa »

ck2 wrote: post #29

Yes it will guarantee housing prices for rent rise to the guaranteed income. Just like college prices magically rise to the amount of available loans.

That is different. The college market is nothing like the housing market. There is no way to say "College A and B are exactly the same merit but College B costs more, so I will choose College A". So many people do not make college decisions based on price (besides the broader decision of private university vs public university vs community college).

With rent is is different. If a landlord tries to change the price of an apartment because tenants have more money, people will look for another apartment immediately. Unless they collude or there is a shortage of apartments, the pricing should stay sane.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#47

Post by manyoso »

vinceguidry wrote: post #25
nilkn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There should already be a not-so-huge wave of accomplishment coming from all these people. Could you clarify which people specifically you're talking about? I'm not trying to disagree with you. It's just that the main examples I'm thinking of are retired folks receiving social security and people with disabilities.

That's a lot of people, and they shouldn't be left out of the discussion. Retired people and the disabled accomplish a lot of things. It's just that these are personal accomplishments. Paying someone to not have to participate in the economic system, seems to me to force them to forever remain outside of it, unless they have a rare kind of motivation, that kind of motivation would mean they didn't need the basic inco…

"Paying someone to not have to participate in the economic system"

No, again, basic income is about the government providing an income to meet basic needs without any strings attached. The government isn't paying you not to participate, they are saying you may participate and how much is up to you without fear of starving.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#48

Post by bryanlarsen »

ck2 wrote: post #29

Yes it will guarantee housing prices for rent rise to the guaranteed income. Just like college prices magically rise to the amount of available loans.

Why? It doesn't change supply, and I don't think it would have much of an effect on demand, either -- it's too cold for Finland to have much of a homeless population.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#49

Post by vitalysh »

dageshi wrote: post #24
bryanlarsen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income wouldn't pay out to everybody: the obvious example is that it wouldn't be paid to people in country on tourist visas. Full citizens obviously would get it. Where to draw the line between those two determines how generous you want to be. Most immigrants / refugees I know would be happy not receiving benefits such as basic income as long their children get all the benefits and opportunities that natives do…

Bear in mind there are 500 million eligible persons within the EU that may move to Finland if they choose. Once there they cannot legally be treated any differently to a Finnish native.

Not really true, if you move to Finland as EU citizen, you won't get Finnish social security right away. You have to work here to apply for it.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#50

Post by Retric »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

The US is a fairly poor example of this as you must be disabled, looking for a job, retired, or raising kids to qualify for long term assistance. And creating something of value is a great way to be kicked off the system and sometimes have to pay that money back.

The EU model is closer to basic income and Harry Potter is one example that does show up from that well. There are actually quite a few works of art made by people 'on the dole'.

Post reply on HN