Finland’s basic income plan could change everything • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#11

Post by DonaldFisk » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

nugget wrote: post #2

I'm a fan of the theory of basic income but it seems incompatible with an open border/immigration policy. Given how many refugees are already migrating into Europe (many for economic reasons), how would a basic income change the incentives and migration patterns even further?

That isn't a problem if it's only available to citizens of the country which introduces it. (It's sometimes called Citizen's Income.) It's usually intended to replace benefits so it would act as a disincentive to would-be migrants.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#12

Post by vinceguidry » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz.

The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital could rise out of nowhere and carry us all into a new age.

But we don't need to actually implement basic income in order to test that out. Plenty of people already receive checks from the government every month that they live on, in exchange for no real work responsibilities. Like, a whole lot of people. There should already be a not-so-huge wave of accomplishment coming from all these people. Not to belittle them and their abilities, but there isn't. Just about everything that we consider a real advance comes from people working the system that exists using their own ingenuity, not from people allowed to escape the system by providing them an inalienable source of income.

Modern Western societies are rich enough that smart, motivated individuals can mostly rise to the level of their own ability. To do better than that we need to build a better society, not just make the one we have richer. Basic income could be an important step, but it's only one step.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#13

Post by CountSessine » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:34 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #3

nugget wrote: post #2

I'm a fan of the theory of basic income but it seems incompatible with an open border/immigration policy. Given how many refugees are already migrating into Europe (many for economic reasons), how would a basic income change the incentives and migration patterns even further?

Why do you see it as different from any other positive thing about a country? Good educational and job opportunities, lack of pollution, effective healthcare and so on, your children not having bombs dropped on them, pretty much anything that makes a country better for the people who live there will make it more attractive to immigrants.

Why do you see it as different from any other positive thing about a country?

All properties of a country are either intensive or extensive of migrants and of existing citizens.

Intensive properties would be nice weather and a rich history.

Extensive properties are things like public healthcare, public schools, and a civil society.

Basic income is no different than other extensive properties; all of these are affected by the culture of and the wealth generated by the country's citizens. Immigration, by changing the properties of the citizenry, will affect all extensive properties of a country, positively or negatively.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#14

Post by codyb » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:34 PM UTC

As I've been growing up I've realized increasing population, automation, and globalization are going to force some sort of change in how we distribute wealth and resources in nations, and in the world.

The study of the town in Canada is a favorite of mine. The results are staggering and nearly immediate.

Why we haven't moved towards solutions which in the long run may actually save us money through better educated and less stressed citizens sooner is an interesting thing to think about to me.

I've never tried to do the math though, it does get expensive quick.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#15

Post by cmdkeen » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:34 PM UTC

This is all tied up in the Scottish independence debate, a "once in a generation vote" which is set to be replayed in the next few years because the "wrong" outcome happened. The economic argument for independence has collapsed since, especially with the collapse in the price of oil.

That given this background the article could say things like there being benefits to the health system from "ending poverty" given the article also took savings from not having pay benefits any more sums up this approach. The 60% of the median calculation used for the poverty* line requires ~£10k annual income, so if you don't have any children this payment would still put you firmly below the poverty line if you didn't / chose not to work.

A basic citizen income is incredibly expensive and essentially a massive benefit to the richer classes.

* That's leaving aside issues with absolute v relative poverty rates

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#16

Post by nilkn » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:35 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

> There should already be a not-so-huge wave of accomplishment coming from all these people.

Could you clarify which people specifically you're talking about? I'm not trying to disagree with you. It's just that the main examples I'm thinking of are retired folks receiving social security and people with disabilities.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#17

Post by mschuster91 » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:35 PM UTC

I'm worried if this will provide an incentive to rent hikes - landlords can easily raise rents by pointing out that everyone has additional 800€ per month to spend.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#18

Post by dageshi » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:35 PM UTC

DonaldFisk wrote: post #11

nugget wrote: post #2

I'm a fan of the theory of basic income but it seems incompatible with an open border/immigration policy. Given how many refugees are already migrating into Europe (many for economic reasons), how would a basic income change the incentives and migration patterns even further?

That isn't a problem if it's only available to citizens of the country which introduces it. (It's sometimes called Citizen's Income.) It's usually intended to replace benefits so it would act as a disincentive to would-be migrants.

Because Finland is in the EU you would have to apply to all EU citizens moving to Finland and pretty much all EU citizens (500 odd million) are legally allowed too move to Finland if they choose too.

You're correct that it wouldn't have to apply to anyone outside of the EU.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#19

Post by ones_and_zeros » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

xlayn wrote: post #5

This is taking the objective of taxes to an extreme: redistribution of resources from the wealthiest to the poorest. From wikipedia: "Governments also use taxes to fund welfare and public services. These services can include education systems, health care systems, pensions for the elderly, unemployment benefits, and public transportation. Energy, water and waste management systems are also common public utilities." .…

Taxes are whatever the electorate want them to be. Plus the modern day idea of taxes is relatively new... I mean, income tax in the US is barely 100 years old. The whole basis of the US tax system rides on the "General Welfare" clause, so really taxes provide for the general welfare (food, shelter, etc), and a basic income covers all of the general welfare bases without all of the overhead of separate agencies and regulations.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#20

Post by jerf » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 8:38 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #16

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

> There should already be a not-so-huge wave of accomplishment coming from all these people. Could you clarify which people specifically you're talking about? I'm not trying to disagree with you. It's just that the main examples I'm thinking of are retired folks receiving social security and people with disabilities.

Many people are on physical disability who could still be doing most of the things that basic income is supposed to enable. To the extent that it limits them in some specific ways, if the basic income elevator pitch is correct, one would think that it would make what they can do even more likely to come out.

This is a very interesting point I hadn't thought of, worthy of some thought. (And that's all I'm saying. I haven't had the thought time yet.)