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There are no secure smartphones

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Re: There are no secure smartphones

#21

Or you can just use WIFI and turn the baseband off like I do. The cell companies are all crooks anyways (in the US), and I don't want to do business with them.

Doesn't the baseband control wifi too anyway? You should see the amount of things the SoC/baseband does.

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#22
post #4

It's good to draw attention on baseband processors, but there are technical assertions in this post that are probably not accurate (lack of auditing and the notion that you can assess the security of a whole phone system by whether or not there's an IOMMU). The systems security of modern phones is surprisingly complex. Google and Apple both care very deeply about these problems, and both have extremely capable engine…

The team behind Replicant reported that they found a baseband backdoor in Samsung Galaxies[0][1]. I think it's perfectly fine to extrapolate from that that you probably shouldn't trust the baseband, even if Google and Apple are looking into it. Until they have a concrete solution shipped, all the in-the-closet work on the problem is meaningless.

0: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/replicant-developers-fin... 1: http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/SamsungG...

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#23
post #4

It's good to draw attention on baseband processors, but there are technical assertions in this post that are probably not accurate (lack of auditing and the notion that you can assess the security of a whole phone system by whether or not there's an IOMMU). The systems security of modern phones is surprisingly complex. Google and Apple both care very deeply about these problems, and both have extremely capable engine…

I'd very much ask you to go into the weeds here, because right now basebands implement specifications that are diametrically opposed to any notion of security from the "application processors" and users perspective. They trust the network unconditionally.

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#24
post #21

Or you can just use WIFI and turn the baseband off like I do. The cell companies are all crooks anyways (in the US), and I don't want to do business with them.

Doesn't the baseband control wifi too anyway? You should see the amount of things the SoC/baseband does.

Interested in the answer to this question.

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#25
Would really love to see this upvoted more. This basic truth should be common knowledge for privacy-minded or security-minded technologists/developers.

There are lots of reasons GSM won't/is hard to make work. What are the options? As more and more carriers in the USA provide wifi-dongles that are connected to 3G, maybe it's better to just do that, and move off making calls directly from your phone completely?

For example, it might make sense to buy some phone, connect it to a device (or flash it with some software) that makes it essentially a portal for phone calls of sorts, and give it sandboxed access to your network. It's significantly harder for GSM backdoors to be effective if the entire device is sandboxed right? Maybe this way, as you roam around, you can somewhat securely communicate over IP to your call-making device, and make/receive calls?

[EDIT] - Thinking about it, the suggestion is moot, since all someone would have to do is write some software to replay messages, or leak messages or some other nefarious thing, and stick it on the baseband of the device -- even if it can't damage your network it's still quite insecure.

Maybe we should just give GSM up altogether, and start trying to move ourselves (and the world) to only communicating over IP (which we have a shot at securing, assuming modern crypto isn't completely broken)? What is the situation like with completley open source wifi connectivity?

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#26
When I spoke to John Callas he said there was a serial link to the baseband on the Blackphone. I might be misremembering, but it certainly is an issue that designers are working on solving.

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#28
post #15
post #3

The folks at http://neo900.org/ are well aware of this and that phone is designed accordingly (details at http://neo900.org/faq#privacy ). Hype-driven products like BlackPhone misrepresent their devices as being perfectly secure when this significant attack vector is completely unmitigated. On the Neo900, the modem is connected via USB (bus; there is no physical connector) which means it doesn't have DMA. There is no…

Not only is OsmocomBB incomplete, but it's illegal to use. I've heard it mentioned multiple times that the baseband and the full stack that communicates with the modem has to be verified by the FCC, in order to comply with regulation on RF bandwidth and power. Even if you got it working in your new cell phone, using it would be illegal. I'm not how true that actually is when you can flash router firmware to use illeg…

Well any RF equipment that you either modified or built yourself is per default illegal to use. You can buy a bluetooth-stack-on-a-chip and talk to it with your Arduino but once you sell that as a product you'll still require FCC certification.

But the FCC isn't overly concerned if you're doing WiFi or Bluetooth, their area are the broad analog strokes, correct bandwidth and correct power. As such, if you use something that has the correct filters in hardware, you'll be just fine though technically breaking the law.

Re: There are no secure smartphones

#30
The Samsung i9300/i9500/etc use separate Exynos application processors coupled with stand-alone communication chipsets from Intel (originally Infineon). Check out the Replicant wiki for more info. The Replicant devices are unfortunately quite old (i9300 being the latest), but newer models do continue the trend (SM-G920H for the S6 international Exynos, I believe). You'll just be stuck on their proprietary OS, or need to fund a bunch of CM/Replicant development.

Of course the same branded (eg "Galaxy S6") has many different models for across the world, most using integrated Qualcomm chips. Honestly looking at the list of variants and thinking about the conservatism of RF and telecom regulatory regimes, you'd have to be naive to think the whole ecosystem doesn't simply exist under the control of major intelligence agencies. Communications have always been regarded as dangerous.

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