Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold • Hacker News Board

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#211

Post by meesterdude » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #196

jarek wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh... there's some value, it's just really badly implemented currently. A selling idea of the Nest is that it keeps your house warm when you're there, and not-frozen when you're not, and it will do so efficiently, so that the house is warm when you arrive home but not long before. Now of course you can just turn up the heating as you walk in the door wait a few minutes to heat up, it won't hurt. But if technology can…

Another thing that you can do is tracking which products you have in your fridges, freezers and cupboards – and when you want to know where something is, you can just do "Jarvis, do we have another bottle of ketchup?" – "Yes, it’s in Kitchen Cupboard Number 2 Left " In fact, I’ve actually designed something similar to that, but a lot simpler. A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check…

> A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away.

I tinkered with something like this too in my app; but not for where things are, I already have pre-defined homes for things.

Instead I was more worried about food going bad before I ate it. but I backed away from it, mainly because barcodes don't carry expiration data. Instead, my app knows whats on my shopping list, and send me an email afterwards that lets me +1 my inventory of something, which ties into a general expiration for that product (like milk is ~week) and then sends me emails when something I bought is close to expiring. For milk it's not such a problem, but other things I buy and forget.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#212

Post by fps » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

atom_enger wrote: post #31

We have two nest thermostats installed at work. I rotate the WiFi keys for our APs quarterly and these things are the biggest pain in the ass to reconnect to the WiFi. The furnace turns off almost immediately after changing the WiFi key once the Nest loses connectivity. At first I thought it was coincidence but now that I rotate on a strict schedule it's a joke in our office. However, what's not a joke is what happen…

I've had two nests at home for almost 2 years, and have never had them stop working when the wifi went out. They just stick to whatever schedule they were programmed with the last time they were on the internet.

I wouldn't buy a nest again because their API is locked down and they seem to think they own all the data that they collect in my house and won't let me access it, but they've been reliable for me and I have never had a problem with my heat going out.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#213

Post by kordless » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

lucaspiller wrote: post #175

kordless wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bug probably affect the Nest's ability to do low power charging using the fan wire. Evidently, as long as the fan runs, the Nest will charge at a lower rate than you get with the common wire hooked up. That is, unless you release some bad code and didn't do a full CI/CD run on a test unit and wait 2 weeks for the battery to go dead to figure out there was a bug. Which hit me on the 8th at exactly 9:29AM. It was F…

Did they actually say it was a bug in the battery / recharge code? It sounds like they could have just added some generic code that prevented the device from going into deep sleep.

I haven't heard that, but I assumed one of three things went when it happened: 1. the Nest was fully charged when I bought it and then was unable to charge itself enough from the fan running and went dead, 2. something happened to the wiring on my heating system to cause it to not charge, or 3. something happened to the Nest itself.

The first assumption was addressed by several heat and air contractors on Youtube, so I hooked up the common 24v wire to ensure it would charge and it immediately started working again. This required me to hook up the wire on the heating unit itself, and the Nest. Given I've worked with electronics and have built parts of houses, done wiring, plumbing, etc., it was a 5 minute job for me.

The Nest was built to provide a feature by which it could charge itself off the latent, low power current that runs through the fan wire while it is running. This is one of those cases where more features equals more things to break when you push.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#214

Post by jarek » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #206

jarek wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh... there's some value, it's just really badly implemented currently. A selling idea of the Nest is that it keeps your house warm when you're there, and not-frozen when you're not, and it will do so efficiently, so that the house is warm when you arrive home but not long before. Now of course you can just turn up the heating as you walk in the door wait a few minutes to heat up, it won't hurt. But if technology can…

The problem isn't that "some value" can't be extracted. The problem is that the value that can be extracted is bounded by my actual problems. Nest can't fundamentally transform my house heating experience into some sort of delight; at the absolute limit, all it could possibly do is cut my heating bill down to $0. Which would be amazing, but it can't do that, of course. Other IoT possibilities I see tossed about have…

Honestly, I agree, and I love having my house low-tech and simple. The best solution is avoiding the problem altogether.

But your argument can be advanced against electric light. I could do just fine with candles in my house. But in 2016 I'm not going to go back to candles, even if electricity isn't really saving me that much time or money.

Imagine in 2050 never having to turn on the lights again because they will turn on automatically and that will work well. Never deal with carrying things and reaching over with your elbow. It won't add more than $200 of value to your life, but will you actively opt out of it?

It's not that "IoT" will make your life vastly more efficient and save you tons of money. It's that when it's easy enough and good enough, it will become the new normal as mains electricity is now. Currently it's a buggy gadget, but so was every technology once.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#215

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

meesterdude wrote: post #211

kuschku wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing that you can do is tracking which products you have in your fridges, freezers and cupboards – and when you want to know where something is, you can just do "Jarvis, do we have another bottle of ketchup?" – "Yes, it’s in Kitchen Cupboard Number 2 Left " In fact, I’ve actually designed something similar to that, but a lot simpler. A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check…

> A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away. I tinkered with something like this too in my app; but not for where things are, I already have pre-defined homes for things. Instead I was more worried about food going bad before I ate it. but I backed away from it, mainly because barcodes don't carry expiration data. Instead, my app knows whats on my shopping…

Fortunately, for most of the food one can buy, "expriation date" is just a manufacturer's suggestion, a date past which they "don't guarantee the intended taste and quality". Nothing to do with actual food safety - you can eat quite a lot of things safely months past their expiration date.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#216

Post by kuschku » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:24 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #207

kuschku wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing that you can do is tracking which products you have in your fridges, freezers and cupboards – and when you want to know where something is, you can just do "Jarvis, do we have another bottle of ketchup?" – "Yes, it’s in Kitchen Cupboard Number 2 Left " In fact, I’ve actually designed something similar to that, but a lot simpler. A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check…

"A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away." Your homework, before you start too far down this road, is to start doing that right now if you haven't already. You don't even need a real scanner; just pretend with a stapler or something vaguely the right shape and weight. You should also go through your cupboards and just scan everything once to simulate the…

I actually have built it in about an hour, weeks ago.

The situation was this: Was at home, had no idea what was in the cupboard. So I scanned everything with the app.

I stopped using it, mainly because scanning via phone is far slower than via a real scanner, and I don’t want to spend money. And because my parents always ignored it anyway.

But I’ll start using it after I move out ;)

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#217

Post by kordless » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #203

radiorental wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the heart of the problem. It's not 'the cloud', unnecessarily complex feature sets, or any of the other complaints being thrown around It's that the software was not thoroughly tested. Nest cut corners in R&D. Consumers are also at fault for not taking the time to understand the hack job Nest has done to trickle charge the device when no common wire is available. Those with 'mission critical' needs (babies, e…

> Consumers are also at fault I can't disagree with this more. When you are trying to replace a thermostat , the onus is on you to do right by your customers. And that may be (is!) difficult. But the customer is never at fault for trusting you, but you can be at fault for abusing their trust.

Your assertion implies a one way trust channel. Company ---trust---> customer. While money is stored trust, it can be used in a trusted or untrusted way. This implies there is little to no customer ---trust---> company.

Most thermostats are trustworthy because they are simple. I bought a fancy thermostat back in the early 90s that had a small LCD screen on it and it would run a schedule if you set it. I eventually replaced it with a regular thermostat because it was a pain in the ass to adjust the temperature with button pushes and the hall that it was in was dark most of the time. This is the extent of customer trust given to a company.

The ability to control the Nest with a dial and from my shell on my computer are great reasons for me to trust the Nest and buy it. That said, I'm also cognizant of the fact it needs to connect to the Internet to allow control from the CLI, do updates and set the schedule correctly.

The onus may be on a company to do right by its customers, but the fact is that mistakes can and will occur if the requirements are such that a remote update and control system be in place for the product.

I think @radiorental is correct that customers don't take the time to understand that having a device which provides X features comes with Y risk associated with it. Nest will always be at risk for "being at fault" for a problem that will occur again in the future. Customers need to understand that a time savings on one side may mean a time cost on the other, when Nest isn't able to cover it for them.

I might point out that anyone who disagrees with this assertion assumes that Nest should not make mistakes. Assuming a complex system is perfect, or can achieve perfection, is irrational.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#218

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:41 PM UTC

sparky_z wrote: post #34

rubidium wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out even if a company markets its products with big bold "not for diagnostic/medical use", and its customers use the products for diagnostic or medical use, the company can still be on the hook. It depends on a number of things, not least of which is the company's knowledge of the actual use of their devices.

That doesn't seem fair. What's a company supposed to do in that situation? Just close up shop? Makes me wonder if it would be possible to intentionally drive a company out of business by convincing a bunch of people to use their products incorrectly.

Come on. They put a heart rate monitor into the device, and they plastered information about it all over their website. I didn't manage to find a single mention that it's crap.

You don't do that unless you want people to believe you're selling a working heart rate monitor. So if it turns out the monitor is not usable for its stated purpose, then they either fucked up the engineering, or they're literally scamming people. In both cases the comapny is supposed to either address the problem or close shop. That's exacly what should happen.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#219

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #187

kuschku wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, the way IoT is treated is wrong. Startups try to treat IoT devices as a standard arm or x86 processor with some additional GPIO pins where they read info, deal with it, and write info. No real-time guarantee, a level of QA similar to websites or consumer software, etc. And here is what previous companies building smart devices (say, SIEMENS) treated them like: As extended microcontrollers. Put all the cri…

To be fair, you can still buy traditional building/home automation products. If you go through the list of vendors on the KNX website you see that pretty much every hip IoT device has a standards-based equivalent from those traditional vendors. Learning thermostats, IP-based video doorbells, smart lights, etc... The difference is one of market strategy. The IoT devices are deliberately low-threshold purchases (cheap,…

> In the end, you have to choose what you want. Do you want a single gadget or do you want a whole smart home system?

I want a whole smart home system built piece by piece through buying various smart devices of different vendors and having them talk to each other. This is how it's supposed to work for the "personal use" market, and this is what we need to push for.

Re: Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold

#220

Post by radiorental » Thu, Jan 14, 2016, 6:42 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #203

radiorental wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the heart of the problem. It's not 'the cloud', unnecessarily complex feature sets, or any of the other complaints being thrown around It's that the software was not thoroughly tested. Nest cut corners in R&D. Consumers are also at fault for not taking the time to understand the hack job Nest has done to trickle charge the device when no common wire is available. Those with 'mission critical' needs (babies, e…

> Consumers are also at fault I can't disagree with this more. When you are trying to replace a thermostat , the onus is on you to do right by your customers. And that may be (is!) difficult. But the customer is never at fault for trusting you, but you can be at fault for abusing their trust.

To put this into perspective. The competing product https://www.ecobee.com/ makes no attempt to power itself via trickle current.

Nest, in an effort to widen the install base went out on a limb. And that's fine but a little research would reveal not insignificant user feedback with installation issues

I'm putting some onus on the customer to understand all the pros & cons with a given product. With the state of smart devices in the home at the moment, homeowners are effectively system integrators. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Would you put t-mobile at fault for selling a phone to a user who didn't check the coverage map first?

Do you read Amazon reviews for any given product you purchase there, or assume all manufactures are selling the absolute best mankind can produce?

The Nest is not fit for installation in a huge portion of homes. The trickle charge tries to side step lack of common wire. When it works it's fine, but it's not hard to find reports of weird installation problems.