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Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

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51–60 of 88 posts

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#51
post #37

Interesting perspective: Oil Limits And The End Of The Debt Supercycle http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/2016-outlook-oil-limit...

Fascinating. Never considered the price pressure of finite storage capacity. That said, about half the article could be summed up in "commodity prices are falling because demand from most of the global working class is falling".

There's a second effect. Companies that are near 100% indebted (and a dropping oil price will seriously lower their expected value, therefore getting them far closer to their debt limits even if they don't actually loan anything). Such companies, how do they respond to price shocks ? You have capital invested, and debt to pay back. But capital is a sunk cost, the debt won't disappear because you stop pumping. Therein lies the rub.

So there's 2 options:

1) you can stop working, stop producing, and use cash on hand (cashflow which they have spent years minimizing) to pay down debt. As soon as this cash on hand is gone, it's over.

2) they can keep working, and keep selling. Doing everything they can to increase revenue just a little bit (ie. selling more oil, making prices drop). This way the cash keeps flowing, even if they become less and less likely over the long term to pay back their debts, but they don't go under right now

Which would you pick ? Keep in mind that price of oil will of course go back up at some point. Wouldn't you want to delay the point where you have to give up, in hopes of delaying it past the point where prices recover and you don't have to give up at all ?

Of course not all companies will succeed at that. But the immediate result of oil companies becoming unprofitable due to price fluctuations is ... more oil getting pumped up. It makes sense if you think about it even if it is thoroughly counterintuitive.

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#52
post #14

It's worth pointing out that this is still before Iran comes online. Once that happens (possibly in a few days) prices could fall further.

There's also major political tensions with the Saudi's and Iran. Some have predicted that if a war were to break out oil would rush back to $100 per barrel. Also, Iran must first past nuclear inspections before they are able to lift the ban.

>Also, Iran must first past nuclear inspections before they are able to lift the ban.

This could happen pretty soon:

>"Implementation of JCPOA will finish in the next seven days," he said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35285095

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#53

Dumb question but I feel like an actual empty barrel costs more than $30. Or is the barrel not included in the price?

I think "barrel" has become a unit of measure. Much of the oil runs through pipelines, to tankers, transported and offloaded to refineries.

It wouldn't surprise me if 90% of all oil was never in an actual barrel, but even if so, I would imagine the barrels are reused, and so not factored in the price.

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#54
post #23

So is Saudi Arabia going to (also) become a terrorist factory once they have to cut all the massive handouts they do and implement heavy austerity? I mean the amount of income in the middle-east is going to severely drop over the next few years - the wealthy won't be affected, just annoyed but the people who have to work for a living are going to be out of jobs, starving and homeless and extreme belief systems often…

"become"?

Well it's been pretty quiet from there since 9/11

I mean the USA made more than 15 domestic terrorists since 9/11

I'm just wondering what happens when the comfortable over there have to give up their luxuries - do they take it in stride or does their belief system go to extremes to compensate?

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#55
post #38
post #9

Yukon XL Denali here I come! Seriously though, I thought Saudi and worldwide peak oil was in 2005. Is that a myth or are prices not really constrained by supply until way past the peak?

This is speculation on my part, but I would think that the threat to the oil producers is not that they may run out of the stuff in 100 years...rather, it's that oil may become obsolete before then (because alternative energy). At $30/barrel, it puts tremendous pressure on electric cars, solar, wind, etc. At $100+/barrel, they were creating a major incentive for the alternatives to thrive. I'd like to hear about this…

I think we're going to see prices cycle like this for at least a few more swings. If there were no speculators in the oil markets you might see slightly more stable prices but there's a tremendous amount of speculation which adds to the price swings, which make the underlying activities more severe.

It takes anywhere from a couple of months to a couple of years to go from "acquired mineral rights" to "pumping oil out of the ground" which you can then sell. It also costs a lot of money. On the order of multiple tens of thousands per day on land and multiple hundreds of thousands per day at sea.

So when prices are up people are expanding and drilling and going gangbusters. When prices are down people are trying to figure out how to cut costs and ride it out. During high prices there tends to be "over" investment and during low prices, "under" investment, both relative to the average investment over say a 5-10 year period. Maybe by a lot.

As you mentioned one of the dynamics is that during low price periods alternative energy is a fool's errand and during high price periods it's genius. During average prices it'll slowly make more and more sense as the average price continues to slowly rise.

But it's far better in some ways to instead of making the average price on an average day to some times make a lot and some times make a little by letting the price vary wildly. Price instability makes alternative energy investing chaotic and unappealing to big institutional investors who might plow substantial money in. Better to wait until the chop settles down and it looks good over a 10+ year timeframe.

So if you get to make the average price on average and destabilize your competitors by letting the price wander all over, what's the downside? As long as you have the money to ride out the low price periods, none!

I don't know when this interesting ride will come to an end, but supply/price management is going to continue to be very important to people with a lot of oil left in the ground.

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#56
Many oil producing nations require $50+/barrel oil to have a balanced budget. After their foreign exchange reserves are depleted (a few years from now), they will start accumulating more debt at their current spending levels, and will likely have to cut public spending. This might not go down so well in some Gulf states

http://uk.businessinsider.com/imf-regional-economic-outlook-...

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#57
post #38
post #9

Yukon XL Denali here I come! Seriously though, I thought Saudi and worldwide peak oil was in 2005. Is that a myth or are prices not really constrained by supply until way past the peak?

This is speculation on my part, but I would think that the threat to the oil producers is not that they may run out of the stuff in 100 years...rather, it's that oil may become obsolete before then (because alternative energy). At $30/barrel, it puts tremendous pressure on electric cars, solar, wind, etc. At $100+/barrel, they were creating a major incentive for the alternatives to thrive. I'd like to hear about this…

Alternatively, now that Tesla demonstrated that electric cars are better in most ways, $30/barrel makes them cheaper to produce.

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#58
post #14

It's worth pointing out that this is still before Iran comes online. Once that happens (possibly in a few days) prices could fall further.

There's also major political tensions with the Saudi's and Iran. Some have predicted that if a war were to break out oil would rush back to $100 per barrel. Also, Iran must first past nuclear inspections before they are able to lift the ban.

Which is pretty scary; that gives some already volatile countries massive incentives to have a war. Humans are good enough at coming up with reasons on their own without paying them to do it.

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#59
post #56

Many oil producing nations require $50+/barrel oil to have a balanced budget. After their foreign exchange reserves are depleted (a few years from now), they will start accumulating more debt at their current spending levels, and will likely have to cut public spending. This might not go down so well in some Gulf states http://uk.businessinsider.com/imf-regional-economic-outlook-...

It's not like they didn't have decades to diversify their economies.

Re: Crude Falls Below $30 a Barrel for the First Time in 12 Years

#60
post #12
post #9

Yukon XL Denali here I come! Seriously though, I thought Saudi and worldwide peak oil was in 2005. Is that a myth or are prices not really constrained by supply until way past the peak?

That's hilarious my friend just bought one of those a month ago and we were harping on her about the mileage.

Well, gas prices haven't dropped to the levels they were at when oil was previously $30/barrel. You can still harp.
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