Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#151

Post by Raphmedia » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #101

Raphmedia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Québec. It's all about bilingualism. As someone who learned french from birth, I could not work in tech if I couldn't also communicate in english. That's a requirement for most jobs and I had to work really hard to get a good level of spoken english. We have people that speak french and spanish, french and english, french and german, etc. Bilingualism is strong here, pick it up if you want to work in the are…

Consider this. I am a Canadian anglophone from British Columbia with highschool French. My children have been raised in the USA with no French. It would be easier for me to take a job and move my family to The Netherlands than to Montreal. (Not a hypothetical example. I turned down an offer a few years ago at a company that wanted to hire me there. My children would have had to learn Dutch, but would have gone to sch…

For a lot of people, it is more important to be strong in our values than to ignore them for the sake of the economy even if it means losing economical growth. For Québec to be strong it needs to be true to itself. Selling out our heritage for profit would be unthinkable.

You could argue that some laws make no sense and I would agree on some points but people are very afraid to lose what makes Québec what it is and some harsh measures are put in place.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#152

Post by beachstartup » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

Almaviva wrote: post #148

beachstartup wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds like you should move. i'm sure you won't though.

If you've lived in Toronto and other major cities and can relate your personal experience, I'm interested. About your generic self help, less so.

my experience is that you should move.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#153

Post by Raphmedia » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #120

Raphmedia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Québec. It's all about bilingualism. As someone who learned french from birth, I could not work in tech if I couldn't also communicate in english. That's a requirement for most jobs and I had to work really hard to get a good level of spoken english. We have people that speak french and spanish, french and english, french and german, etc. Bilingualism is strong here, pick it up if you want to work in the are…

> Bilingualism is strong here, pick it up if you want to work in the area or I could work anywhere else in Canada or the US and not have to.

It's a complicated issue.

There is a strong wish to stay true to our cultural heritage and stay true to our endangered roots as French Canadians. Québec has been fighting pressure to abandon the french language for ages. This is why we have things such as the "Loi 101" and the "Charte de la langue française". It makes sure that people can go in a coffee and order in french without any problems.

You would think this is a non-issue, why force people to speak and write french? It's easy to think that because most of the province is french business and strangers are is going to standardize to french but it's not true. Even with the laws that we have in place, there are a lot of shops or restaurants where they can only offer service in english. It's a constant uphill battle and while some laws make no sense, it's better than having no laws or regulations.

Yes, it is very hard to come and live in Québec if you are not willing to put time and effort to learn french. That's exactly the way we want it.

Sometimes the province is seen as racist and backward from the outside. The truth is that we are a very welcoming people but only to those who acknowledge and try to understand our cultural heritage and the fight that is being fought to stay true to our values despite all the pressure to change.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#154

Post by yannickt » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #121

guiomie wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Quebec's largest mistake was, of course, Bill 101" ... I thought it was the almost won referendum that drove this exile, not Bill 101. My impression is that if you lowered the income tax in Quebec (much higher then Ontario), most probably more professionals would be willing to work there, english or french or any other language. I agree with your statement of "Quebec being full of people who believe that the economy…

I moved to Montreal from Toronto because of the great urban environment which I found (and still believe to be) superior to Toronto. The rents were cheap and salaries were lower, which made me believe running a startup there would be much easier. From the outside I wondered why everyone from Toronto wasn't moving there to build companies. But after a year living there I left - 100% due to the hostility to strictly En…

I am a naturalized Canadian. French is my first language, and I studied and lived in Montreal several years before moving to Toronto. I feel that Toronto, and Ontario in general, does a much better job at integrating immigrants and visible minorities, regardless of origin or native language, than Quebec. This is a huge factor if you want to attract talent in a global economy.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#155

Post by btilly » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 9:46 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #151

btilly wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this. I am a Canadian anglophone from British Columbia with highschool French. My children have been raised in the USA with no French. It would be easier for me to take a job and move my family to The Netherlands than to Montreal. (Not a hypothetical example. I turned down an offer a few years ago at a company that wanted to hire me there. My children would have had to learn Dutch, but would have gone to sch…

For a lot of people, it is more important to be strong in our values than to ignore them for the sake of the economy even if it means losing economical growth. For Québec to be strong it needs to be true to itself. Selling out our heritage for profit would be unthinkable. You could argue that some laws make no sense and I would agree on some points but people are very afraid to lose what makes Québec what it is and s…

As I said, the decision is somewhat justifiable. But there are plenty of comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10888145 which show no awareness of how policy actually translated into economic effects.

I believe that you should either make the decision with full awareness of consequences, or else make the opposite decision. But don't make the decision and then be dishonest about what the consequences were.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#156

Post by F_J_H » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #77

krooj wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That salary ceiling is definitely one of the reasons I left for the states. Funny thing: that article goes to pains to point out that foreign investment into Canadian housing is a big issue, and I'm now watching the Toronto market, with the depressed exchange rate and looming recession, wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment. There are tricky factors surrounding when and what to buy,…

>wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment Why would you do this? There's been nothing but talk about a housing bubble, especially in Vancouver and Toronto. This seems like the worst possible time to buy property there, especially if you take any debt to do it.

This has been the talk for many years now. I know people who have been waiting for the bubble to burst, and now have absolutely no chance of ever getting into the market.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#157

Post by drzaiusapelord » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 10:20 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #153

serge2k wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bilingualism is strong here, pick it up if you want to work in the area or I could work anywhere else in Canada or the US and not have to.

It's a complicated issue. There is a strong wish to stay true to our cultural heritage and stay true to our endangered roots as French Canadians. Québec has been fighting pressure to abandon the french language for ages. This is why we have things such as the "Loi 101" and the "Charte de la langue française". It makes sure that people can go in a coffee and order in french without any problems. You would think this i…

>Sometimes the province is seen as racist and backward from the outside. The truth is that we are a very welcoming people but only to those who acknowledge and try to understand our cultural heritage and the fight that is being fought to stay true to our values despite all the pressure to change.

This is exactly the kind of rhetoric someone from the American south would say about fighting gay marriage or keeping blacks out of their neighborhoods. Yet when it comes to the terrible policies of francophiles, we're supposed to pretend this rhetoric is valid?

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#158

Post by graeme » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 10:20 PM UTC

F_J_H wrote: post #156

graeme wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment Why would you do this? There's been nothing but talk about a housing bubble, especially in Vancouver and Toronto. This seems like the worst possible time to buy property there, especially if you take any debt to do it.

This has been the talk for many years now. I know people who have been waiting for the bubble to burst, and now have absolutely no chance of ever getting into the market.

And if someone bought three years ago, and paid property tax, maintenance, interest on debt and all other fees, etc....what has their return been?

I doubt it's very much, and they've got major downside risk.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#159

Post by gozur88 » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 11:03 PM UTC

brandon272 wrote: post #73

HorizonXP wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. But that insulated bubble is tremendously helpful for growing from a little shitstorm of a startup into something potentially world-changing. Your odds are vanishingly low when it comes to succeeding in a startup. As a founder, you should do everything you can to stack the odds in your favour. Edit: I can't respond to your reply, so I'll do it here. It's not just about funding. It's about finding like-mi…

> But that insulated bubble is tremendously helpful for growing from a little shitstorm of a startup into something potentially world-changing. I think that if your main goal in your startup is to raise capital from tech investors then you are correct that SV is where you need to be. But in terms of actually building a business in the early days where head-down heavy lifting is required, I don't really see what SV of…

>But in terms of actually building a business in the early days where head-down heavy lifting is required, I don't really see what SV offers that Toronto or Montreal do not.

A much larger labor pool. In Silicon Valley, provided you're willing to pay, you can find experts for pretty much anything computer-related. You can find people looking to work at startups, willing to put in the hours, and willing (somewhat) to defer compensation. I'm sure there are a lot of smart people in Toronto and Montreal, but tech people flock to northern California from all over the world.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#160

Post by forgetsusername » Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 11:48 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #115

eigenvector wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Canada went all-in on oil" implies Canada had a choice. When the global price of a commodity you have massive reserves of spikes, what else do you do besides sell as much of it as you can?

Plan for the future by not leaning into the upswing of a boom and bust cycle. Governments encouraged more development, accentuating the cycle. Governments could also have established rainy day funds. Alberta has one, but they haven't added anything to it since 1987. Canada as a whole has none (this is somewhat reasonable, as the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction over natural resources) https://en.wikipedia…

>Plan for the future by not leaning into the upswing of a boom and bust cycle.

I disagree. The upswing of the commodity cycle is precisely when you sell. Who knows, maybe oil is obsolete in 10 years. Then we're sitting on a pile of worthless gunk. Get your money when the gettin' is good.