Tinkerer’s Sunset • Hacker News Board

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#51

Post by raganwald » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 5:57 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #31

DannoHung wrote: post #14

Answer this: You have somehow given a completely unlocked iPad to a child that will run any unsigned executable. How are they going to figure out that they can hack its guts? Now answer this: You have given a child a personal computer running Windows 7 or OS X 10.6. How are they going to figure out that they can hack its guts?

>|Answer this: You have somehow given a completely unlocked iPad to a child that will run any unsigned executable. >|How are they going to figure out that they can hack its guts? I have no idae, I think the point is that they can't. >|Now answer this: You have given a child a personal computer running Windows 7 or OS X 10.6. >|How are they going to figure out that they can hack its guts? http://www.python.org/downloa…

t's okay to release a PC, then totally limit what software can even be installed on it. It's ours, you're just licensing it and that is fine

No, an iPad is NOT a PC, it's an iPad. Apple sells another product, a Mac pro, that's a PC. I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, that's also a PC. And there's the Macbook Air, that's a PC as well. But the iPad is not a PC just as my car is not a PC, even though I'm sure it has RAM and ROm and various CPUs in it. I hear you can buy a fridge with a web browser. That isn't a PC with freon-cooled CPUs, it's a fridge.

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#52

Post by bemmu » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 6:09 AM UTC

I grew up with an 8bit basic too, but to me it seems Garry's Mod would inspire a lot more tinkering than Apple II basic: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7D7FFF74CFCF1CC5

You can start without any programming at all, then extend with Lua scripting. Available on Steam.

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#53

Post by statictype » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 7:37 AM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #51

blhack wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>|Answer this: You have somehow given a completely unlocked iPad to a child that will run any unsigned executable. >|How are they going to figure out that they can hack its guts? I have no idae, I think the point is that they can't. >|Now answer this: You have given a child a personal computer running Windows 7 or OS X 10.6. >|How are they going to figure out that they can hack its guts? http://www.python.org/downloa…

t's okay to release a PC, then totally limit what software can even be installed on it. It's ours, you're just licensing it and that is fine No, an iPad is NOT a PC, it's an iPad. Apple sells another product, a Mac pro, that's a PC. I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, that's also a PC. And there's the Macbook Air, that's a PC as well. But the iPad is not a PC just as my car is not a PC, even though I'm sure it has RAM…

Your fridge is not in danger of replacing your PC.

Your argument makes sense if we were talking about the iPhone. What role is the iPad meant to play, if not a simplified PC replacement ?

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#54

Post by Volscio » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 9:55 AM UTC

DomesticMouse wrote: post #34

orangecat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I think there is a valid concern about the trend to legislate against tinkering--restricting sales of radios that can hear on cell phone frequencies, DVDCSS, DRM, suppression of chemistry sets, evacuating a school due to misunderstanding of an electronics experiment. Exactly. In Apple's vision of the future, using your own computer in ways they don't approve of is illegal: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/02/app…

This is a question of perception. Faced with something that doesn't make sense, a geek will see it as a challenge, a puzzle, a worthy adversary. Geeks love challenges. A lot of people don't. I have many people who have me on speed dial for when they feel like tossing their laptops out the window. It's for these people that the iPad is designed. All of this "death of tinkering" shows me that none of you guys actually…

Quite a broad brush...

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#55

Post by Volscio » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 10:00 AM UTC

yan wrote: post #19

I really don't understand the wave of alarmist posts on the 'end of a tinkering era'. Today, we have more communities and devices for tinkering than we've ever had. Magazines like Make, sites like Hack-a-day, platforms like Arduino, and countless open source projects that are simply there to be messed with, and one device that comes out with a (probably) justified need to be locked down, and everyone raises panic? If…

You have to weigh in the fact that the growth of the internet has allowed hobbyists to find each other. But then governments and international organizations will be pressured to prosecute against hackers and tinkerers. The post addresses the possibility that in the future, we won't be able to modify our own hardware. It's not elitist to worry about who will have ownership over our future products if it's not going to be ourselves.

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#56

Post by Volscio » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 10:02 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #44

gfodor wrote: post #32

The iPad has really brought out a lot of old, crochety "well in my day" engineers that are now to the point where its embarassing. The iPad will draw more people towards software engineering, because for the first time we will have a general purpose computer that doesn't suck horribly for normal people. It will be cool. It will be fun. Passion for software has little to do with how much you can "hack" down to the har…

> They can, of course, jailbreak. Why do people insist that 'jail-breaking' is some sort of valid option? * If Apple had their way even jail-breaking would be illegal. * Jail-breaking is dependent on security holes in the operating system (i.e. the same way that you are jail-breaking your iPhone is the same way that blackhats could take it over) * Jail-breaking breaks on most updates. Why do people think that it is i…

Paging Lessig...we're encouraging our children to either be less curious or to willingly break copyright laws.

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#57

Post by blasdel » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 10:16 AM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #38

DomesticMouse wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a question of perception. Faced with something that doesn't make sense, a geek will see it as a challenge, a puzzle, a worthy adversary. Geeks love challenges. A lot of people don't. I have many people who have me on speed dial for when they feel like tossing their laptops out the window. It's for these people that the iPad is designed. All of this "death of tinkering" shows me that none of you guys actually…

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. To the extent that the iPad makes computing more accessible to more people, that's a good thing. The problem is with the entirely separate issue of Apple actively putting roadblocks in the way of those of us who would like to customize it.

He's disagreeing with the idea that those two issues are in any way separate.

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#58

Post by ubernostrum » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 11:11 AM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #16

wglb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about opportunities to tinker/hack. Just check out Maker Faire, or Ramsey Electronics or Ardunio stuff. But I think there is a valid concern about the trend to legislate against tinkering--restricting sales of radios that can hear on cell phone frequencies, DVDCSS, DRM, suppression of chemistry sets, evacuating a school due to misunderstanding of an electronics experiment.

But I think there is a valid concern about the trend to legislate against tinkering--restricting sales of radios that can hear on cell phone frequencies, DVDCSS, DRM, suppression of chemistry sets, evacuating a school due to misunderstanding of an electronics experiment. Exactly. In Apple's vision of the future, using your own computer in ways they don't approve of is illegal: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/02/app…

As they say on Wikipedia: "citation needed".

Do you really believe Steve Jobs is sitting in a dark room somewhere, cackling over how his plan to destroy freedom will soon be complete?

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#59

Post by rimantas » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 11:54 AM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #49

The funny part is that they (Apple) are waging war against those grown tinkers that they created . The sweet irony doesn't stop there. Today's little hackers are just as motivated to seize control of their technological world as those in past years. I have learned from watching my own children that just about nothing can stop a motivated child. All they are doing with their endless keys and locks and walled gardens i…

endless keys and locks and walled gardens

By that you mean freely available SDK?

Re: Tinkerer’s Sunset

#60

Post by Create » Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 11:56 AM UTC

yan wrote: post #19

I really don't understand the wave of alarmist posts on the 'end of a tinkering era'. Today, we have more communities and devices for tinkering than we've ever had. Magazines like Make, sites like Hack-a-day, platforms like Arduino, and countless open source projects that are simply there to be messed with, and one device that comes out with a (probably) justified need to be locked down, and everyone raises panic? If…

will never harm anyone's ability to tinker with technology that want to. There will always be platforms that are open by design

No. Freedom is never granted: it is use or loose it.

Most posters miss the cultural aspect, which is more fragile than you might think. E.g. those, who have no longer seen quality colour TV do no longer have a demand for it. When was The Ascent of Man, or The Day the Universe Changed last updated? When you could learn about the world around you? Perhaps a decade ago? TV hardware is more advanced as ever (large, crisp home theaters) and locked-down as ever (DRM, HDMI, CryptoCard etc.) Would you think you have a case, that there is a demand for quality TV content?

completely open device like OpenMoko

A very good example: it is a practically completely discontinued open communications device. Last time communication devices were open was HAM, which was quickly taken away (read example on freeculture.org).