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Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

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Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#2
The article is a neat primer and quite a good look into some of the band dynamics. The ending is particularly on-point as well, which I think is good for a lot of non-jazz people to hear about/research themselves:

>But the truth is that electric guitar solos are directly descended from saxophone solos via Charlie Christian, who defined his instrument (which was once seen as a joke among jazz musicians, much as the saxophone’s a joke in rock) by being the first guitarist good enough to cop saxophone riffs in cutting contests

I've listened to a lot of Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery over the years. The similarities to great horn players is quite up front, I believe.

One thing that could be of interest, if one were to actually write a book on the subject, would be tracing the cost & technology & 'market forces' between guitars and horns (sax) during the past 50 years - as in, if guitars got cheaper and better (amps, effects, etc), and saxophones kept a higher barrier of entry cost, that might be a factor in the transition. Also public perception. Like the hits Guitar Hero and Rock Band - I'm pretty sure there's no way to plug in an Akai EWI or Yamaha piece to jam out on, just because there's not really a market I suppose.

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#3

The article is a neat primer and quite a good look into some of the band dynamics. The ending is particularly on-point as well, which I think is good for a lot of non-jazz people to hear about/research themselves: > But the truth is that electric guitar solos are directly descended from saxophone solos via Charlie Christian, who defined his instrument (which was once seen as a joke among jazz musicians, much as the s…

I didn't think I'd see an article like this on HN of all places. But yeah, jazz, r&b, and rock are musical cousins and often borrow from each other.

There was a discussion on /r/jazz on "Do average people (non-jazz fans) realize that jazz is improvisational?" And one answer is that average people don't realize how nuch improvisation is in music in general. The great rock guitarists often played improvised riffs and solos.

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#4
> A shitty thing about standard histories of rock and roll – ones that tell us that the music is half country and western, half rhythm and blues – is that they always slight jazz

Kind-of. Thing is, "country and western" as a genre can itself be seen as "one half traditional folk, one half jazz." The "father of country music," Jimmie Rodgers, was a vaudeville performer/hobo who knew the traditional songs from the railroad workers, but who aspired to be a jazz performer. The result was a fusion of "hillbilly music" and jazz. He even worked with Louie Armstrong in 1930: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BFbY9Vw8DM

Western Swing would spring up a few years later, which is clearly part-jazz just looking at its name, and would remain popular through the 1940s. This was the "country and western" that Elvis was listening to. If you check out some of the tracks from the 40s, the electric guitar solos are eerily pre-rock-and-roll, see 2:05 in this recording from around 1946: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aChNp0ePdMg

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#5

The article is a neat primer and quite a good look into some of the band dynamics. The ending is particularly on-point as well, which I think is good for a lot of non-jazz people to hear about/research themselves: > But the truth is that electric guitar solos are directly descended from saxophone solos via Charlie Christian, who defined his instrument (which was once seen as a joke among jazz musicians, much as the s…

I think the guitar being amplified has a lot to do with how popular it became. The guitar really took off when it became possible to be heard over a big band. This really emphasizes its usefulness as a solo instrument.

I think horns were traditionally used for these types of solos because they're loud and they really cut through the mix.

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#6
post #5

The article is a neat primer and quite a good look into some of the band dynamics. The ending is particularly on-point as well, which I think is good for a lot of non-jazz people to hear about/research themselves: > But the truth is that electric guitar solos are directly descended from saxophone solos via Charlie Christian, who defined his instrument (which was once seen as a joke among jazz musicians, much as the s…

I think the guitar being amplified has a lot to do with how popular it became. The guitar really took off when it became possible to be heard over a big band. This really emphasizes its usefulness as a solo instrument. I think horns were traditionally used for these types of solos because they're loud and they really cut through the mix.

Well, you could always give the horn player a mic. I don't really recall many big band electric guitar soloists. The only one I can think of is Charlie Christian. So I doubt volume is a major factor in the guitar's popularity over the saxophone in popular music.

I think one big thing is the versatility of the electric guitar's sound. You can put it through different effects pedals to completely change the sound of the instrument. Wind instruments couldn't do this until the invention of the Varitone, but even then the natural tone of the instrument is still predominant. This is probably also why synthesizers became really popular.

I think another big factor is that the guitar (and other rock band instruments) is more "democratic". The guitar is more amenable to self-learning. It's cheaper than a wind instrument. Even beginner saxophones are several hundred USD, whereas you can get a low-end electric guitar for pretty cheap. It's easier to make a good sound right off the bat. Just press down a fret and pluck. No need to practice an embouchure and blowing technique. Really, the only hard part is to practice contorting your fingers into different chord positions. But rock musicians generally play a few simple chords, so this isn't that big a deal. And plus, you don't even have to learn to read music, since you can rely on tabs, which show you exactly how to position your fingers on the fretboard.

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#7

> A shitty thing about standard histories of rock and roll – ones that tell us that the music is half country and western, half rhythm and blues – is that they always slight jazz Kind-of. Thing is, "country and western" as a genre can itself be seen as "one half traditional folk, one half jazz." The "father of country music," Jimmie Rodgers, was a vaudeville performer/hobo who knew the traditional songs from the rail…

these guys (prominent mando players) are talking about Chuck Berry's possible roots in bluegrass/Bill Monroe's recordings

at 0:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftxl5tzIfXE

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#8
post #7

> A shitty thing about standard histories of rock and roll – ones that tell us that the music is half country and western, half rhythm and blues – is that they always slight jazz Kind-of. Thing is, "country and western" as a genre can itself be seen as "one half traditional folk, one half jazz." The "father of country music," Jimmie Rodgers, was a vaudeville performer/hobo who knew the traditional songs from the rail…

these guys (prominent mando players) are talking about Chuck Berry's possible roots in bluegrass/Bill Monroe's recordings at 0:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftxl5tzIfXE

A demo one of my professors used to show was:

Bob Wills (damn, that pedal steel...): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFef08YZ6qk

Chuck Berry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RAfxiyMKAk

Wikipedia cites Wills' 1938 recording as the source, but it's fun to have the video. I totally believe Berry referenced Bill Monroe, I mean, Elvis' Blue Moon of Kentucky is a direct cover of a Bill Monroe tune. It's also thought that Scotty Moore's guitar style on Elvis' early singles was influenced heavily by Merle Travis' playing style ("Travis Picking" also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8vOTKMqzw4).

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#9

The article is a neat primer and quite a good look into some of the band dynamics. The ending is particularly on-point as well, which I think is good for a lot of non-jazz people to hear about/research themselves: > But the truth is that electric guitar solos are directly descended from saxophone solos via Charlie Christian, who defined his instrument (which was once seen as a joke among jazz musicians, much as the s…

A little nit-pick: I don't believe a saxophone qualifies as a "horn". The term "horn" usually refers to wind instruments where the player blows into it and vibrates their lips. These would be trumpets (very commonly also called "horns"), trombones, French horns, and tubas. A saxophone is a derivative of a clarinet, which is a reed instrument. The player blows into it, but the sound is produced by a vibrating reed which the player manipulates with their tongue.

Re: Sleazier sounds: electric guitar solos are descended from saxophone solos

#10

The article is a neat primer and quite a good look into some of the band dynamics. The ending is particularly on-point as well, which I think is good for a lot of non-jazz people to hear about/research themselves: > But the truth is that electric guitar solos are directly descended from saxophone solos via Charlie Christian, who defined his instrument (which was once seen as a joke among jazz musicians, much as the s…

A little nit-pick: I don't believe a saxophone qualifies as a "horn". The term "horn" usually refers to wind instruments where the player blows into it and vibrates their lips. These would be trumpets (very commonly also called "horns"), trombones, French horns, and tubas. A saxophone is a derivative of a clarinet, which is a reed instrument. The player blows into it, but the sound is produced by a vibrating reed whi…

Through grade school and some college experience in band (alto, tenor, and baritone saxophone!) we called all the instruments horns. Even percussion mallets/sticks. It was just a formality of dealing with field orders during football/marching season, including "horns up."
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