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The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

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Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>People can hold widely different opinions about politics because... it's politics. Most of it is bullshit, and rest doesn't affect your daily life anyway, at least not immediately or directly. I completely disagree. Most political issues have a direct impact on people. Affordable Care Act is requiring millions of people to buy health insurance. Defunding Planned Parenthood would cut aid from millions of young women…

Ask yourself - how many of those issues affect you directly? And by directly I mean something you'll suddenly have to account for in your daily life and spending patterns. Personally, their equivalents in my country don't affect me at all. I'm young and relatively healthy, my employer pays for my health insurance. Yes, accidents can happen, but it's an abstract possibility. Gun control - when have you last seen peopl…

> Say, on the other hand, that we'd have confirmed reports about zombies (or evil commie nazi aliens)

seriously? so you read a piece whose thesis is "talk rationally and empathetically with people that hold different points of views" and your next thought was "okay, zombies and evil commie nazi aliens, yeah"

anyway:

> I'm young and relatively healthy

great for you, I'm not. daily survival is contingent on remaining employed. yippee! the opposition to ACA sees a reminder of why they should oppose this issue every two weeks when they look at their income tax deduction and wonder how much they would get back if a few people that they didn't really know suffered some more. what is more immediate than money missing from your own pocket?

> when have you last seen people shooting each other on the streets in real life?

growing up, guns were a part of every day life. they were tools that you used to accomplish concrete goals. sometimes those goals were defending yourself from wildlife, sometimes they were getting dinner. sometimes, they were for ending your own life. people that are for gun control have seen one too many accident, suicide, or homicide. people that are against gun control see an immediate threat to a utilitarian tool or a way of life. it's very visceral and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

> Gay marriage is something that naturally affects only LGBT people

I guess you don't know or care about any LGBT people in your life, which is okay, but totally overlooks anyone for whom this is the case. in the south, if you walk around in the wrong town with the person you love, you're liable to have someone yell "FAGGOT!" or "DYKES!" at you just for being you. to the people doing the yelling, they are on the front line of a culture war and they see an insult to their moral fiber every time they encounter someone that loves another of their own gender. they get a reminder of why to keep fighting every week or so.

these aren't abstract concepts, these are issues where the parties involved have real skin in the game. the abstract issues you're thinking about are probably things like "foreign policy" or "defense spending" but even there the reason to support them is visceral - every time a redneck sees someone on the street that isn't white, they get reminded of the "other" and are filled with a desire to keep them out. every time a family living near a base hears about BRAC they develop an immediate fear for the vortex of pain that is about to fill their lives, require their relocation, and destroy the property value of their home.

you are a fool if you think the people involved in these debates consider the issues abstract. they're quite concrete.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the US president is a secret muslim from kenya in office to take away the guns in furtherance of the global warming hoax? I see aspects of that narrative on TV almost every day. It's a daily reality for millions and millions of americans.

None of those concepts are as crazy as lizard people, are they?

Well they are both rather unlikely, but at least the lizard thing is testable. Poke the guy with a stick and see. Question answered. The other theories cannot be so easily disproved.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#93
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>People can hold widely different opinions about politics because... it's politics. Most of it is bullshit, and rest doesn't affect your daily life anyway, at least not immediately or directly. I completely disagree. Most political issues have a direct impact on people. Affordable Care Act is requiring millions of people to buy health insurance. Defunding Planned Parenthood would cut aid from millions of young women…

"Defunding Planned Parenthood would cut aid from millions of young women." No, the "defunding Planned Parenthood" amendment would have simply removed their status as a preferred (and overpaid) provider of abortion services. Overall funding of family planning ( including abortion ) would not have been reduced, and Planned Parenthood could have still competed for such patients on level ground with all other providers.…

> No, the "defunding Planned Parenthood" amendment would have simply removed their status as a preferred (and overpaid) provider of abortion services. Overall funding of family planning (including abortion)...

Are you saying that the federal government is funding abortion services in violation of the Hyde Amendment?

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#94

As a former card carrying Debate Club member, I suppose this article may be helpful for people who aren't used to having these arguments. But I don't believe it is very helpful for most interactions on anything really controversial right now. Most people making arguments for "the other side" haven't actually had to defend them against real criticism. They also are usually not the originators of their position, they'r…

> Most people making arguments for "the other side" haven't actually had to defend them against real criticism.

If you go into a conversation with a condescending viewpoint like that, don't be surprised if you don't get anything out of it.

Even if the person you're arguing isn't an expert on the issue you're talking about, they are an expert on why they feel that way. And understanding that can be helpful.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a right winger in rural Indiana. We somehow ended up talking about global warming and he told how me how he didn't believe in it. I probed a bit further. He told me when he was younger people were talking about a food crisis and then he saw wheat yields increase by a factor of 3 or something. His main point was that we've heard stuff like this before and somehow it all turned out okay, so we'll probably be okay this time too. And this viewpoint is a lot more reasonable than he's just a fool who is repeating what Trump and his cronies are feeding him.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#95
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>People can hold widely different opinions about politics because... it's politics. Most of it is bullshit, and rest doesn't affect your daily life anyway, at least not immediately or directly. I completely disagree. Most political issues have a direct impact on people. Affordable Care Act is requiring millions of people to buy health insurance. Defunding Planned Parenthood would cut aid from millions of young women…

"Defunding Planned Parenthood would cut aid from millions of young women." No, the "defunding Planned Parenthood" amendment would have simply removed their status as a preferred (and overpaid) provider of abortion services. Overall funding of family planning ( including abortion ) would not have been reduced, and Planned Parenthood could have still competed for such patients on level ground with all other providers.…

"(Sec. 3) This bill prohibits, for a one-year period, the availability of federal funds for any purpose to Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc., or any of its affiliates or clinics, unless they certify that the affiliates and clinics will not perform, and will not provide any funds to any other entity that performs, an abortion during such period." [0]

Additionally, Planned Parenthood already does not receive any federal funding for abortion services, because, under the Hyde amendment, no federal funding goes to abortion (excluding rape and incest).

"No funds authorized or appropriated by Federal law, and none of the funds in any trust fund to which funds are authorized or appropriated by Federal law, shall be expended for any abortion." [1]

[0] https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/3134...

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/142...

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>People can hold widely different opinions about politics because... it's politics. Most of it is bullshit, and rest doesn't affect your daily life anyway, at least not immediately or directly. I completely disagree. Most political issues have a direct impact on people. Affordable Care Act is requiring millions of people to buy health insurance. Defunding Planned Parenthood would cut aid from millions of young women…

Ask yourself - how many of those issues affect you directly? And by directly I mean something you'll suddenly have to account for in your daily life and spending patterns. Personally, their equivalents in my country don't affect me at all. I'm young and relatively healthy, my employer pays for my health insurance. Yes, accidents can happen, but it's an abstract possibility. Gun control - when have you last seen peopl…

I have a friend who would probably be dead if it wasn't for the ACA's expansion of dependent health care coverage. I had another friend who might still be alive today if guns had been harder to acquire.

The fact that my gay and lesbian friends can get married is important to me, as is the fact that they are protected from workplace discrimination (in my state). As a result, it's important to me that gay, lesbian, and trans people in other states don't have the same protection.

For a cisgender straight white high-SES male to disregard things that don't directly affect him isn't rational, it's solipsistic.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's bullshit though. On many issues, one or both sides don't have any argument beyond "me not like". But that's enough, if you can find enough people that feel the same way.

No, that's actually a very insightful observation. The process of taking your opponent's argument, improving it and defeating its stronger form is sometimes known as "steelmanning"[0]. "If you’re interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents' arguments. But if you're interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents' arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the…

I have heard that that is an Augustinian trait or method. But I have not been able to find any reference to St Augustus advocating this.

Can anyone help me out? Perhaps I have the wrong saint or philosopher.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#98

As a former card carrying Debate Club member, I suppose this article may be helpful for people who aren't used to having these arguments. But I don't believe it is very helpful for most interactions on anything really controversial right now. Most people making arguments for "the other side" haven't actually had to defend them against real criticism. They also are usually not the originators of their position, they'r…

This attitude ignores the other 90+% of people who read your replies: people who aren't actually engaging, just reading and considering. I think the meme of 'debate online is pointless' is wrong because the vast majority of people who read anything you write publicly will be able to read from a position where they could have their mind changed, maybe. Write for those people.

This is explained in Thank You For Smoking, and illustrated every day on C-SPAN

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#99
post #5

Yes but what if the other side doesn't extend you the same courtesy? What if the other side sees your thoughtfulness as weakness, your careful consideration as waffling and flip-flopping and leaps onto the opportunity to push even more extreme views, becomes even more absurdly divisive? On the whole in terms of writing, social media, op eds, etc I feel intellectuals (left and right) have taken this advice too much an…

> Yes but what if the other side doesn't extend you the same courtesy?

Extend it anyway. It's the only way not to make things worse, and neutral readers will respect you more.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#100
post #6

The "Other side" is scared, not dumb. Molly Ivins used to point this out. For the white lower middle class, life has been a slow downhill slide since the mid-1970s. Those are the people who support Trump and the Tea Party. Unfortunately, exploiting that fear is politically effective. This is a problem with a long history. There are records of it back as far as Cicero. It's not their fault that they don't know what to…

The "other side" applies both ways, though. The left has a lot of humor and satire which innately belittles those right wing views (the Onion, The Daily Show, Tom the Dancing Bug, etc). While I identify largely as a liberal, I do conservatives a disservice by mocking these views in my actual interaction with them. Their views may indeed be based on fear, but treating them not as scared humans deserving of being engag…

I highly recommend the Moral Politics talk by Linguistics professor George Lakoff: http://youtu.be/5f9R9MtkpqM

In short, the two sides of the debate speak different language representing different world views rooted in upbringing and triggered / exploited by metaphors. This talk changed my view on political speech and narrative dramatically.

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