Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 127 posts

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#51

Post by nikdaheratik »

As a former card carrying Debate Club member, I suppose this article may be helpful for people who aren't used to having these arguments. But I don't believe it is very helpful for most interactions on anything really controversial right now.

Most people making arguments for "the other side" haven't actually had to defend them against real criticism. They also are usually not the originators of their position, they're forwarding the ideas from someone else, so they don't necessarily even understand what it is they are articulating.

Trying to engage with someone who doesn't know how to argue and doesn't actually grasp their ideas is about as productive as trying to argue with a 4-chan meme. I've long ago decided to just put my 2-cents in a single time, if I feel they're saying something really stupid, then move on.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#52

Post by TeMPOraL »

Swizec wrote: post #49
lostcolony wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more true online, and for a lot of reasons. I meet someone at a party and we become Facebook friends. I then post some sort of political article or comment to my feed. They see it, disagree with it, and (likely) either comment on it in a non-polite manner, or stay silent, but either way categorize me in their head as a crazy right/left winger. Why? Because these are what is easiest to do for 'crazy' opinions co…

Here's what I don't understand, and I'm likely the weird one here: Why are political opinions considered private? Is it an anglosaxon thing? Is it a middleclass thing? It feels completely alien to me. Where I come from politics (in one form or another) are the first thing you talk about with new people that you meet. It's the most fruitful ground for conversation that goes beyond mundane boring smalltalk nobody cares…

I think it's an age-old custom. There are two things that are off-topic for casual conversations with non-family-members - political and religious beliefs. People tend to tie them to their egos, and it pretty much always results in resentment. It's a general population equivalent of inexperienced developers arguing about merits of programming languages or text editors.

'pg actually wrote an essay about it once.

http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#53

Post by nadagast »

nikdaheratik wrote: post #51

As a former card carrying Debate Club member, I suppose this article may be helpful for people who aren't used to having these arguments. But I don't believe it is very helpful for most interactions on anything really controversial right now. Most people making arguments for "the other side" haven't actually had to defend them against real criticism. They also are usually not the originators of their position, they'r…

This attitude ignores the other 90+% of people who read your replies: people who aren't actually engaging, just reading and considering. I think the meme of 'debate online is pointless' is wrong because the vast majority of people who read anything you write publicly will be able to read from a position where they could have their mind changed, maybe. Write for those people.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#54

Post by memracom »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #30
state wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to me to be even more true online, although we like to think that information technology has the opposite effect.

One of the side effects of the Internet is that you can find pretty much any plausibly sounding justification for any view. Couple that with the modern world being insanely complicated - acknowledging which leads to feelings of helplessness - and there's no surprise people end up believing different things depending on what they happened to read. People want to feel they understand things. Nobody wants to feel stupid…

In the British tradition, university students used to participate in debates where two people argued the opposite sides of a question. The debaters got brownie points for winning the debate, not for arguing the RIGHT opinion. Often the debaters had to argue for a question which they themselves were against, or vice versa.

The audiences who voted the winner, paid more attention to the quality of the debate, not to the question itself.

In a culture where this type of debate is practiced in the schools, people of all ages will be more open to discussing an issue in a social setting without strapping on revolvers and a bulletproof vest.

It is not a question of identifying who is the enemy, it is a question of figuring out which path will lead to a better world 100 moves in the future. Because real life really is like a chess game. The outcome of the next move is not the be all and end all.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#55

Post by Cyberdog »

Swizec wrote: post #49
lostcolony wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more true online, and for a lot of reasons. I meet someone at a party and we become Facebook friends. I then post some sort of political article or comment to my feed. They see it, disagree with it, and (likely) either comment on it in a non-polite manner, or stay silent, but either way categorize me in their head as a crazy right/left winger. Why? Because these are what is easiest to do for 'crazy' opinions co…

Here's what I don't understand, and I'm likely the weird one here: Why are political opinions considered private? Is it an anglosaxon thing? Is it a middleclass thing? It feels completely alien to me. Where I come from politics (in one form or another) are the first thing you talk about with new people that you meet. It's the most fruitful ground for conversation that goes beyond mundane boring smalltalk nobody cares…

> Here's what I don't understand, and I'm likely the weird one here: Why are political opinions considered private?

People often keep their political opinions private in polite society simply because of what this whole thread is about - it's very easy for people who don't know you very well to judge you by the political opinions you spout and then possibly treat you more poorly because of that. This is why I tend to keep my mouth shut about political stuff at my workplace. (It doesn't help that I know that, statistically speaking, my opinion will be at odds with most of the others in my industry and location.)

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#56

Post by TeMPOraL »

brandonmenc wrote: post #43
Animats wrote: post #6

The "Other side" is scared, not dumb. Molly Ivins used to point this out. For the white lower middle class, life has been a slow downhill slide since the mid-1970s. Those are the people who support Trump and the Tea Party. Unfortunately, exploiting that fear is politically effective. This is a problem with a long history. There are records of it back as far as Cicero. It's not their fault that they don't know what to…

Well, at least we know what "side" you're on. > For the white lower middle class [...] Those are the people who support Trump and the Tea Party. There's another white lower middle class - the educated but underemployed left (think literature majors waiting tables), and they're also terrified. They're terrified that we're just an election away from mandating every rape victim be violated with a penetrative ultrasound,…

Everyone likes to think about their ingroup as victims of oppression, and their outgroup as the oppressors. In extreme cases, this is what drives the social justice movement on the Internet.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#57

Post by Nursie »

I don't share links on social media, and I've basically blocked all news sources and link-factories so I don't see when others do either.

It took some time, but my facebook is now more or less back to inane chatter and cat/baby/both pictures.

Everyone else is free to get on with signalling their hearts out, I don't want to know.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#58

Post by humanrebar »

woodandsteel wrote: post #15

This is an excellent article. It occurs to me that it would be good if someone put up a web site where pairs of people could publicly or privately practice the sorts of respectful interviewing and dialogue that he is advocating. Let me add that I have found the active listening skill of just saying back to the other person what they said is very useful here. I have run workshops where people did this and it is remark…

The EconTalk podcasts are great examples of this, though with an economics flavor.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#59

Post by Nursie »

lostcolony wrote: post #34
state wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to me to be even more true online, although we like to think that information technology has the opposite effect.

It is more true online, and for a lot of reasons. I meet someone at a party and we become Facebook friends. I then post some sort of political article or comment to my feed. They see it, disagree with it, and (likely) either comment on it in a non-polite manner, or stay silent, but either way categorize me in their head as a crazy right/left winger. Why? Because these are what is easiest to do for 'crazy' opinions co…

I don't know. I had one or two friends come out as anti-vax IRL and we didn't have a discussion, instead my opinion of them just plummeted.

Re: The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb

#60

Post by EdSharkey »

cryoshon wrote: post #11

What if the other side is actually rejecting factual reality, though? Are they still "not dumb"? What if facts have no hold on them whatsoever? Can we even have a productive conversation? See: vaccine deniers/vaccine scheduling skeptics, climate change deniers, evolution deniers, etc.

Dogged skepticism is a good thing. We need more critical thinkers asking questions.

I'm sad that there is a "deniers" meme meant to attach visions of the holocaust to those who choose not to go with the flow. I would totally blush if I said something so faux-outrageous to someone's face.

Post reply on HN