Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

news.ycombinator.com

21–30 of 121 posts

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#21
post #19

Luckily, you can skip right ahead to React+Redux. It's really a logical extension of your stack than you think. jQuery and Backbone you can pretty much ignore except know that it's a less elegant and less declarative way to do models, views, and event binding.

I've a good few years web programming experience: Rails, PHP, HTML/CSS/JS (jQuery), SQL, ... you get the idea. Apart from keeping up to date with Rails nothing 'modern'.

I've spent the last week (finally!) trying and in the end succeeding to wrap my head around React+Redux. It took a many many many hours of puzzlement. I began with the react+slingshot[0] @coryhouse made as a starter kit and going through the React docs and Redux docs. I guess my desire stemmed from seeing Dan's demo of Redux's time-travel and hot reloading ability, I was intrigued. I copied the TODO example from the Redux docs and fashioned it to my liking exploring all the parts.

I'm here to tell you that it's not easy. The landscape is still in flux (buh-dum-tish, I'll be here all week folks) and that for every piece of the dev tool puzzle you've two or three options.

I think you can get away with React+Redux on the client side which replaces the V in your MVC. {This in practice means the `react', `react-dom', `react-redux', and `redux' files. _Everything_ else is tooling, but my God so much tooling}. YMMV.

That's as far as I'd go, otherwise you're throwing out all your server-side dev experience, and why would you want to do that?

What I'd like to ask folks is: what happens to my nice static HTML/CSS pages if React+Redux is all JS? Server-side rendering? I'll come back and edit this and put in a few more links I found handy. Do believe the hype, React+Redux is pretty neat.

[0] https://github.com/coryhouse/react-slingshot ---

Edit!

React docs: https://facebook.github.io/react/docs/getting-started.html

React DevTools: https://github.com/facebook/react/wiki/Complementary-Tools

The Video: Dan Abramov - Live React: Hot Reloading with Time Travel at react-europe 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSnOQynTHs

Redux docs: http://rackt.org/redux/docs/basics/index.html

Redux DevTools: https://github.com/gaearon/redux-devtools/

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#22
Wow, there is a lot of awful advice in this thread.

HTML, Javascript and CSS are still extremely important and they have come a long way since 1990. Forget everything you knew about them and research their state in 2016. You have a lot to learn, but you'll find all three more powerful and expressive today than they were in 1990.

There is currently a big shift in the way clients want their websites to work. In the past (and present) clients were happy with simple HTML pages that were generated on the server and sent down to the client for every action the user performs. Now and in the future, we're shifting towards "Single page apps" which are Javascript centric applications that store page templates client-side and talk to the back end through APIs. Page transitions are emulated with Javascript routing libraries. This means the frontends are more complex but can provide a richer, more interactive experience. To see the cutting edge of this technique search for React + Redux.

Backend development is still important. People generally converge under a simple set of rules for backend development called Model-View-Controller. This is a design pattern that dictates how requests are delegated into your business layer. Investigate MVC as well as Domain Driven Design to get yourself up to speed.

Understand that there is an enormous amount of garbage out there right now. Some things to be extremely wary of are NoSQL databases (they have very limited use cases but are marketed as a silver bullet) and NodeJs (a backend server which executes Javascript but has more than a few shortcomings). Be extremely skeptical of any advice you receive over the internet. There are too many people dispensing advice with no actual credibility because of the ease of access to the Internet.

The best thing to do is to work with some talented developers and build your own network from them. A lot of developers on the leading edge use Twitter and often drop useful bits of advice to keep you on the right track.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#23
post #6

My take is that a greater percentage of websites can be written in HTML and CSS than currently are: both in the sense of websites that could be entirely written in HTML and CSS and as portions of websites that can be written in HTML and CSS instead of with something else. Many of current batch of tools were developed to meet the needs of engineering teams at scale: e.g. Angular @ Google and React @ Facebook. Their he…

Yeah. Bring back text/plain and the idea of progressive enhancement. I started trying to learn React.js and fell down the rabbit hole you mentioned.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#24

I don't know what any of those things you named are. I ignore all that stuff. The only thing from the '90s that doesn't work anymore is Flash, because I guess Apple blocked it during the mobile revolution and it killed its dominant position. Otherwise, everything applicable from back then still is today. Any time anyone mentions PHP on forums like this, there's always fashion-conscious people who jump in to attack it…

"JavaScript is the same"

"What I'm getting at is, I don't know why you need to update anything"

Shocking advice. There is a huge amount to learn. Any developer coming from the 1990s needs to re-learn all their technologies or they are going to have a very stressful time delivering anything appealing to users expectations in 2016.

"Since the stuff you already know still works, there's not much need to use anything else"

This kind of mentality leads to becoming deadwood and unemployment. Developers must keep learning especially with the rate of change of technology over the past 5 or so years.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#25
Would personally recommend you try some modern, beginner-friendly JS frameworks, such as:

RactiveJS - http://learn.ractivejs.org

KnockoutJS - http://learn.knockoutjs.com

These aren't the hottest or most popular technologies, but they teach good fundementals and are easy to get started with, compared to the powerful but complex frameworks like React and Angular, etc.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#26

Wow, there is a lot of awful advice in this thread. HTML, Javascript and CSS are still extremely important and they have come a long way since 1990. Forget everything you knew about them and research their state in 2016. You have a lot to learn, but you'll find all three more powerful and expressive today than they were in 1990. There is currently a big shift in the way clients want their websites to work. In the pas…

I think this is probably the best suggestion in here.

And I'd just add that there's no need to jump into a new backend language if you used PHP years ago. Sure it's not as robust or structured but for a hobbyist it can do everything you need and there's still plenty of jobs for it if you want to graduate to an MVC framework.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#27
Find a problem that is not easily solved by your current knowledge/experience and explore it. Having a clear goal does wonders to provide focus and limit the chances of being overwhelmed by "all the things."

When you address the problem, don't immediately jump to the newest framework/stack that claims to solve it but instead try and use the majority of your existing skills and knowledge with one or two modifications... even if they are "out of date." Going through the effort of adapting existing skills allows you to better understand the underlying problems as well as re-live (in blessedly compressed time) the iterations that occurred to arrive at the current accepted solutions. There's a lot of wisdom to be found in taking that journey.

Learning the "why" of things is far more important than just acquiring the operational skills for a given technology.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#28
post #6

My take is that a greater percentage of websites can be written in HTML and CSS than currently are: both in the sense of websites that could be entirely written in HTML and CSS and as portions of websites that can be written in HTML and CSS instead of with something else. Many of current batch of tools were developed to meet the needs of engineering teams at scale: e.g. Angular @ Google and React @ Facebook. Their he…

Completely this. If I teleported here from the 90s, first thing I'd need to wrap my head around is how HTML and CSS have changed. I'd be learning a responsive framework (or even hand-rolling it, so you know how it works) like bootstrap. And doing a very basic website. And if html5 & responsive css aren't enough to wrap your head around at once, I'd create a github account, and start with github pages. That'll let you…

Take a look at Susy for layout, bit more flexible than Bootstrap:

https://github.com/oddbird/susy

Also for static site generators take a look at:

https://middlemanapp.com/ (Ruby) http://gohugo.io/ (Go) https://github.com/getpelican/pelican (Python)

When you need to go beyond static sites and take a look at the web frameworks - Ruby on Rails is the obvious one, but I reckon that Meteor (https://www.meteor.com/) could be a good bet now that it has matured. Might save you a lot of time when compared to RoR for certain tasks.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#29
Check out meteorjs. Javascript has a huge amount of buzz and usage these days, and meteorjs is a fairly simple fully integrated environment that allows you to do just about anything. I don't use it - I have been developing software since the early 90s and I am currently working in RoR. But when I want to play around, it's in meteorjs. In my opinion, too many teams are using an environment that is too complex, ensuring that nothing is predictable.

Re: Ask HN: How does a 1990s web developer get back on track?

#30

Wow, there is a lot of awful advice in this thread. HTML, Javascript and CSS are still extremely important and they have come a long way since 1990. Forget everything you knew about them and research their state in 2016. You have a lot to learn, but you'll find all three more powerful and expressive today than they were in 1990. There is currently a big shift in the way clients want their websites to work. In the pas…

> There is an enormous amount of garbage out there right now. Some things to be extremely wary of are NoSQL databases and NodeJs.

> Wow, there is a lot of awful advice in this thread.

Post reply on HN