Live data from Hacker News

Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

quantamagazine.org

31–40 of 82 posts

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#31
post #19
post #7

This was a great read! But I wish the article would have mentioned how tiny the microscopic time-reversal effects are, compared to macroscopic time reversal. The microscopic effects are too small to explain why we have such a clear direction of time. Our direction of time is defined by the observation that entropy (or "chaoticness") always increases with time. If you mix orange juice with water, you will not see the…

> Therefore, a system transitioning from state to state is much more likely to be in one that looks chaotic, and very, very unlikely to ever go back to a state that is non-chaotic. This one thing I don't understand about the 2nd law of thermodynamics: given enough time won't the system go back to a more organized state simply by chance? And in that case, wouldn't the total entropy be reduced?

As others said, your understanding is fine - you just need to gain the appreciation to how much more unordered states are there for a system to be in than the ordered ones. My physics professor used to underscore it by drawing diagrams that show a line that suddenly goes from almost 0 to "the tip of this line is somewhere in the next galaxy".

Or to give you a somewhat similar problem - consider a 32x32px 8bit image (a standard Windows icon since version 3.0). The image consists of 1024 pixels, each capable of representing a different color from the set of 256 colors. How many possible pictures like this are there? Or, as you'd ask in thermodynamics, in how many states such a system can be? It's 256 states per pixel raised to 1024th power (just like 6-digit binary number has 2^6 possible values). It's 256^1024. You know how much is it?

  10907481356194159294629842447337828624482641619962326924318327861897213318491192
  95216264234525201987223957291796157025273109870820177184063610979765077554799078
  90629884219298953860982522804820515969685161359163819677188654260932456012129055
  39018863010179002525357999172000100796000265358368009052978058809523505016301954
  75653911005312364560014847426035293551245843928918752768696279344088055617515694
  34994540667782514081490061610592025643850457801332649356583604724240738244281224
  51315177575191648992263657437224322773680750276278830452065017927617009456991684
  97257879683851737049996900961120515655050115561271491492515342105748966629547032
  78632150573082843022166497032439613863525162640951616800542762343599630892169144
  61811874063953106654048857394348328774281674074953709935118687563599703901170218
  23616749458620969857006263612082706715408157066575137281027022310927564910276759
  16052087830463241104936456875492096732298245918476342738379027244843801852697776
  49410727156115804346908274593399919614142427414105991174260605564837637563145276
  11362658628383368621157993638020878537675545336789915694234433955666315070087213
  53547025567031200413072549583450835743965382893607708097855057891296790735278005
  49356215610907958451729541159729274798775277385600082041185589300047777487277618
  53813510493840581861598652211605960308356405941821189714037868726219481498727603
  65361629885617482241303348543878532402475141941718301228107820972930353737280457
  43720952287036227763639452908698062584223551485075710396193874496298668081887696
  62815778153079393179093143648340761738581819563002994422790754955061288818308430
  07964869323217915876591803556521615711540299212027615560787310793747746684152836
  29877086994501520312318625942030856938389446570613462367042340268211029589549511
  97087076546186622796294536451620756509351018906023773821539532776208676978589731
  96633030889330466516943618507835064156833694453005143749131129883436726523859540
  49042734559287239495252271846174043678547546104743770197680255766058810380772707
  07717942221977090385438585844095492116099852538903974655703943973086090930596963
  36076752996493841459818570596375456149735582781362383328890630900428801732142480
  86639626713335280092327583508730596141187237814221014601986157473868550968960891
  89180441339558524822867541113212638793675567650340362970031930023397828465318547
  23824423202801518968966041882297600081543761065225427016359565087543385114712321
  4227266605403581781469090806576468950587661997186505665475715792896
This much. (Source: [0]).

Now ask yourself, how many of those pictures represent a letter "A". Quite a lot probably, but nowhere near that much. In all those 256^1024 pictures, you have every possible representable letter A, as well as any other possible Unicode character. In those images are all your most cherished private photos (or at least their thumbnails), and also the photos of all things that you'd wish happened but didn't. A thumbnail of every possible photo of the universe is there as well.

There's also something else. Something much more frequent than all other image I've just mentioned taken together. It's the noise. The things we don't recognize, the things we consider uninteresting. I ask you, use your intuition - if you were to create a random Windows icon every second, how soon would you expect to get one depicting a letter "A"?

And now realize we were talking about silly icons that are probably barely visible on your screen.

There are 6.02 x 10²³ atoms in 12 grams of carbon. I.e. in a tip of your pencil. 602000000000000000000000 atoms. Those are your pixels. And if you want to compute the number of states this pile of atoms can be in, that is the number that goes in your exponent. The base is some combination of possible positions, orientations and velocities, and then probably something else I'm forgetting right now. And almost all of those states are noise. That's how the Second Rule works.

[0] - http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=256%5E1024

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The indeterminacy may not be real. It's just that you don't know the state. I don't believe there is a rule that says you get to know everything.

Are you proposing a "hidden state" which is unobservable? Such a formulation is not consistent with quantum mechanics, as proven by Bell's theorem, unless you permit instantaneous influence from arbitrarily distant parts of the universe.

I'm saying that the construction "indeterminate" is only a statement about the knowledge of the person making the statement. Are you proposing that the universe doesn't act unless you are considering it?

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#33
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd see radiation hitting the planet warming the mantel, complex chemicals breaking down & releasing heat, all warming the planet significantly to the point where it was a molten ball, and finally lots of instability where large explosions were throwing pieces of it into space. Basically take the movie and play it backwards.

I find it very hard to picture a molten ball throwing a giant chunk of cold comet deep into space.

Yes, but the reason you do is that it's merely (and extremely) unlikely, not impossible. The third law of thermodynamics has its own arrow of time (the one in which entropy increases), but the basic interactions of the universe don't need to change to make that happen. They work symmetrically (mostly, with some tiny exceptions as detailed in the linked article).

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you proposing a "hidden state" which is unobservable? Such a formulation is not consistent with quantum mechanics, as proven by Bell's theorem, unless you permit instantaneous influence from arbitrarily distant parts of the universe.

I'm saying that the construction "indeterminate" is only a statement about the knowledge of the person making the statement. Are you proposing that the universe doesn't act unless you are considering it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem

Certain observations are probabilistic, and the correlations in them predicted by quantum mechanics cannot be reproduced by ascribing them to the traits of particles.

It means that at the lowest level, the universe is (barring faster-than-light communication, generally regarded to be false) "truly random". (No concept of an "observer" needs to be devised in order to arrive at this conclusion).

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#35
post #7

This was a great read! But I wish the article would have mentioned how tiny the microscopic time-reversal effects are, compared to macroscopic time reversal. The microscopic effects are too small to explain why we have such a clear direction of time. Our direction of time is defined by the observation that entropy (or "chaoticness") always increases with time. If you mix orange juice with water, you will not see the…

For those interested in the anthropomorphic principle, this paper by Wald might be interesting: http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0507094v1.pdf

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#36
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therefore, a system transitioning from state to state is much more likely to be in one that looks chaotic, and very, very unlikely to ever go back to a state that is non-chaotic. This one thing I don't understand about the 2nd law of thermodynamics: given enough time won't the system go back to a more organized state simply by chance? And in that case, wouldn't the total entropy be reduced?

As others said, your understanding is fine - you just need to gain the appreciation to how much more unordered states are there for a system to be in than the ordered ones. My physics professor used to underscore it by drawing diagrams that show a line that suddenly goes from almost 0 to "the tip of this line is somewhere in the next galaxy". Or to give you a somewhat similar problem - consider a 32x32px 8bit image (…

The Digital Library of Babel (https://libraryofbabel.info/) was posted here a while ago, which is a tangible way to search through this space. The library comes from a book by Jorge Luis Borges, which has all possible books, meaningful and not. The people in the book are searching for books with meaning, but the chance of finding one is really small. The digital library lets you do the search electronically. Kind of fun to play around with.

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that the construction "indeterminate" is only a statement about the knowledge of the person making the statement. Are you proposing that the universe doesn't act unless you are considering it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem Certain observations are probabilistic, and the correlations in them predicted by quantum mechanics cannot be reproduced by ascribing them to the traits of particles. It means that at the lowest level, the universe is (barring faster-than-light communication, generally regarded to be false) "truly random". (No concept of an "observer" needs to be devised in order to arrive…

How do you know it's truly random though? Couldn't it be the result of a pseudo random process? Or universe splitting, where two universes are created, one where a coin lands head, and one where it lands tails. To the people inside, it seems random, but it's actually deterministic.

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem Certain observations are probabilistic, and the correlations in them predicted by quantum mechanics cannot be reproduced by ascribing them to the traits of particles. It means that at the lowest level, the universe is (barring faster-than-light communication, generally regarded to be false) "truly random". (No concept of an "observer" needs to be devised in order to arrive…

How do you know it's truly random though? Couldn't it be the result of a pseudo random process? Or universe splitting, where two universes are created, one where a coin lands head, and one where it lands tails. To the people inside, it seems random, but it's actually deterministic.

Pseudorandom means the choice is deterministically chosen by according to the state of hidden variables. Bell's theorem says there are no hidden variables that completely explain the predictions of quantum mechanics.

A many-worlds interpretation (which is consistent with QM) is basically the same as saying the result is random, because you can't predict exactly which branch any particular interaction will follow.

Re: Time’s Almost Reversible Arrow

#40
There is a hypothesis that universes with reversible time can't exist. Or time travel of any kind. Such universes, the hypothesis goes, can't have any meaningful cause and effect, like we know it. Causality is an extremely important property of our universe. And it's really weird that our universe has it, if the hypothesis isn't true. The space of possible universes without causality is much larger than restricted subset that obeys that rule. This is difficult to explain, so see here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/fok/causal_universes/
Post reply on HN