SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision • Hacker News Board

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#141

Post by themartorana » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #110

vinceguidry wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. Solar is only really practical if it fits into the grid system, otherwise there's no real point. The energy it gives you goes up and down, and not in sync with your own household needs. So you need something to do with excess capacity. All by itself, units of power aren't all that expensive. But a solar installation is very expensive. You need to amortize the cost of the installation, the people…

> What this is all about is the power companies are suddenly deciding they want to pay wholesale for excess power. Why should they pay wholesale? The power companies (normally) have enough power to supply everyone; they buy that power at wholesale prices and sell it to the customer at retail prices. So why, if they can always buy power at wholesale prices, should they deliberately pay retail prices instead? Doing so…

Because if you, as a consumer who can't pay wholesale, take a watt and then put back a watt, are still out some rent money.

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#142

Post by tomp » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

ebbv wrote: post #80

tomp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of subsidies?

Are you kidding? Every kind imaginable, from subsidies for coal mining and oil to subsidies on natural gas, subsidies on upgrading for higher efficiency, etc. Not to mention the implicit subsidy of the rest of us picking up the tab for the damage they are doing to the environment. If you're really curious there's tons of information out there.

> Are you kidding?

No, I was genuinely curious.

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#143

Post by encoderer » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

baldfat wrote: post #129

vinceguidry wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. Solar is only really practical if it fits into the grid system, otherwise there's no real point. The energy it gives you goes up and down, and not in sync with your own household needs. So you need something to do with excess capacity. All by itself, units of power aren't all that expensive. But a solar installation is very expensive. You need to amortize the cost of the installation, the people…

> over around 30 years before it's really worth it That is ANCIENT Solar Technology. If you care to read this it actually is Energy payback estimates for rooftop PV systems are 4, 3, 2, and 1 years: 4 years for systems using current multicrystalline-silicon PV modules, 3 years for current thin-film modules, 2 years for anticipated multicrystalline modules, and 1 year for anticipated thin-film modules http://www.nrel.…

Wait. I have solar and love it. But if your electric bills over a 4 year period do not amount to the install cost of the solar, the technology used is meaningless? And because install costs do not decrease with more efficient tech, and things like the inverters are just as expensive, I certainly cannot pay off my system in 1 year. More like 10 years.

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#144

Post by vosper » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #134

dpark wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should they pay wholesale? They're not buying in wholesale quantities from each consumer. Why should they pay retail? As a consumer thinking about solar, I like that, but it makes no economical sense. What business can afford to buy and sell for the same price? You don't sell a car to the dealership for the price they will sell it for. That would be absurd.

A power company is not a normal business, they are a public utility. They aren't supposed to be making money, they're supposed to be providing a public service.

Who says they can't do both?

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#145

Post by encoderer » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #110

vinceguidry wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. Solar is only really practical if it fits into the grid system, otherwise there's no real point. The energy it gives you goes up and down, and not in sync with your own household needs. So you need something to do with excess capacity. All by itself, units of power aren't all that expensive. But a solar installation is very expensive. You need to amortize the cost of the installation, the people…

> What this is all about is the power companies are suddenly deciding they want to pay wholesale for excess power. Why should they pay wholesale? The power companies (normally) have enough power to supply everyone; they buy that power at wholesale prices and sell it to the customer at retail prices. So why, if they can always buy power at wholesale prices, should they deliberately pay retail prices instead? Doing so…

It's a bit more complicated than that, too. I don't know about NV, but in California the power company never actually buys net power from you. At best you can owe $0, you never get a check from the power company, even if you pump all of your juice to the grid. So it's only paying "retail prices" insofar as it's offsetting the retail prices you're paying for your overnight/cloudy day power. And incidentally, overnight/cloudy days are off-peak times for power cos.

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#146

Post by HillaryBriss » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #117

jacquesm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go with a gas generator make sure you stabilize the gas or it won't work by the time that you need it.

Propane or natural gas are cleaner, and more reliable, than gasoline or diesel.

Can you recommend a small, single-home capacity natural gas generator?

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#147

Post by cowkingdeluxe » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #111

cowkingdeluxe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the actual cost to the grid of a solar home which only uses power at night from the grid and maybe delivers some to it during the day? In any of these anti-solar positions about grid costs I've never seen a factual statement of what it actually costs the power providers.

The same as any other house on the grid. How much power you typically use and when has almost no impact on how much grid connection costs. All that matters is the peak they must be able to deliver. That is why billing transfer together with consumption makes no sense. They should be completely split into two bills paid to two different companies like in Finland.

But what are some actual numbers for costs to the grid per household?

I've yet to see any concrete numbers but I see a lot of justification of minimum fees using grid costs as the primary reason.

If these costs are so visible and important, why is it hard to find actual costs? Is it $2k per year per household? $400? $100? Does it match up with some of these $50/mo minimum fees?

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#148

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #138

jacquesm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll want to think long and hard about how you're going to deal with fuses. For the kind of currents that batteries can put out it can be quite expensive to properly fuse things. 50V was a fairly arbitrary voltage deemed to be 'safe', however there are cases known of people dying from 50V and even lower (in particular, one very nasty accident involving a Swiss ham in pre-internet times). A bus made of thick copper…

You seem to be doubting the feasibility of micro grids, but people are already doing this with 240 V. Granted, it's harder to steal copper wire that is at 240 V.

> You seem to be doubting the feasibility of micro grids, but people are already doing this with 240 V.

Not doubting them at all. It's just that I have some experience with burying high current / high voltage cabling and keeping such installations safe.

> Granted, it's harder to steal copper wire that is at 240 V.

Just use VMVK, armored version if you can get it. I got a whole pile of it that was left over after a large construction job on a dam in Canada. Paid pennies on the dollar, basically I just paid the copper market price.

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#149

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #146

Zigurd wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Propane or natural gas are cleaner, and more reliable, than gasoline or diesel.

Can you recommend a small, single-home capacity natural gas generator?

Any 4 stroke gas generator can be converted to NG.

Generac is pretty good and they have NG/LPG 'native' models.

Re: SolarCity Will Eliminate Over 550 Job Due to State’s Anti-Rooftop Solar Decision

#150

Post by JoshTriplett » Fri, Jan 08, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #141

JoshTriplett wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What this is all about is the power companies are suddenly deciding they want to pay wholesale for excess power. Why should they pay wholesale? The power companies (normally) have enough power to supply everyone; they buy that power at wholesale prices and sell it to the customer at retail prices. So why, if they can always buy power at wholesale prices, should they deliberately pay retail prices instead? Doing so…

Because if you, as a consumer who can't pay wholesale, take a watt and then put back a watt, are still out some rent money.

> Because if you, as a consumer who can't pay wholesale, take a watt and then put back a watt, are still out some rent money.

And in that same case, the power company is out some infrastructure and maintenance costs.

But either way, you state that as though power grids have some fundamental property that necessitates the same rates for purchase and sale, a property that most other exchanges do not have.