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Academics, we need to talk

matt-welsh.blogspot.com

141–150 of 170 posts

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#141
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true that they come from the brightest people, I'd say that's very much a bias. Much like how YC often says that the best startup founders aren't necessarily the smartest people in a room. Occasionally, being the very brightest can even be counter-productive because in the end the people who are less smart and realize it will strive to work harder. And that's what research really is, really hard laborious…

> That's not true that they come from the brightest people, I'd say that's very much a bias. [Citation needed] There are such things as talent, insight and experience but intelligence makes everything easier, from learning new fields and tools to evaluating and formulating new ideas. Ceteris Paribus more intelligence is better.

That's a bit reductionist on something that is inherently non-reductionist: how do you define a good problem worth solving.

I believe you presented a logical leap between having all the tools one could ever dream of delivering scientific impact.

Here's a citation: "scientific impact is a decelerating function of grant funding size".

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#142

Now, I don't think all academic research has to be relevant to industry. I'm getting kind of sick of this tactic, where this fake concession is made before going on about how academia isn't designed well enough to deliver to industry. If authors of articles like this didn't care about the efficiency of academia to deliver them research, what's the big deal if there are a bunch of people somewhere running around in ci…

I'm getting kind of sick of this tactic, where this fake concession is made before going on about how academia isn't designed well enough to deliver to industry. This +1, er +1,000,000. I would firmly state that academia by definition is not supposed to 'deliver to industry', and not even to society. The whole point of academia is to give the very smartest people (whatever that means) the freedom to explore ideas, so…

> I would firmly state that academia by definition is not supposed to 'deliver to industry', and not even to society.

That, and also, academia is several thousand years older than industry.

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#143
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would say that we should divide universities up into more separate institutions for Arts, Philosophy, Fine Arts, Natural Sciences, Applied Science, Math, Social Sciences, Business, Law, Medicine (or is that a Science?) and others, but the point of universities is be places of knowledge, and to help foster cross pollination between the disciplines. The point of independent research is to be unfettered by governme…

Honestly, that makes more sense which is why PRIVATE industries should create schools inorder to foster educatin relevent to them. Having organized education that is relevent to the real world is an exellent idea. However, reforming schools is not the appropriate approach. We live in a capitalist society, if they dont like whats around, they should compete. Im confident people are more than willing to pay 20k a year…

This is also very dangerous.

Having schools that don't teach for the sake of fostering knowledge and critical thinking but rather just train you to serve in a specific industry/company would be the final blow to higher education in the US.

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#144
post #12

Now, I don't think all academic research has to be relevant to industry. I'm getting kind of sick of this tactic, where this fake concession is made before going on about how academia isn't designed well enough to deliver to industry. If authors of articles like this didn't care about the efficiency of academia to deliver them research, what's the big deal if there are a bunch of people somewhere running around in ci…

(I'm the author of the original blog post.) Ad hominem attacks aside, I do think it's a big deal if a bunch of academics are spending time working on the wrong things, if for no better reason than maximizing efficiency: Don't forget that most academic research is funded by the government. Since I also happen to help decide which research proposals Google funds, I also care that academics are well-aligned with the pro…

Your point of view honestly makes me sad. It's the kind of industry-centric thinking that is killing culture.

Under this premise, investing in the arts is a waste of money, when you could invest in UX studies. Investing in the humanities is a waste of money, when you could invest in data analysis. Hell, why even have academia at all? Wouldn't it be better if education was managed and provided directly by the industry?

This fetish for optimisation only ends up hurting the sense of humanity in all of us. Not everything has to be done with the purpose of being disruptive, or in a frenzy for efficiency. Some people are just goddamn curious about bees and will study honey bees (as useless as it may sound) because understanding nature is a goddamn delight in its own right, even if it doesn't yield the next billion-dollar idea.

That innate delight and curiosity is where science is born. Let's appreciate that. It applies to STEM too. Maybe some academics don't care about your problems or in fact solving any problems at all, and decided to be in academia not for the "potentially-groundbreaking research" but just the thrill of finding new stuff and uncovering the beauty in the universe, don't you think?

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#145
post #144
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm the author of the original blog post.) Ad hominem attacks aside, I do think it's a big deal if a bunch of academics are spending time working on the wrong things, if for no better reason than maximizing efficiency: Don't forget that most academic research is funded by the government. Since I also happen to help decide which research proposals Google funds, I also care that academics are well-aligned with the pro…

Your point of view honestly makes me sad. It's the kind of industry-centric thinking that is killing culture. Under this premise, investing in the arts is a waste of money, when you could invest in UX studies. Investing in the humanities is a waste of money, when you could invest in data analysis. Hell, why even have academia at all? Wouldn't it be better if education was managed and provided directly by the industry…

I'm not sure if you read the original article or not, but I very clearly point out the benefit of long-range research in addition to things more directly relevant to industry. So I don't agree with the premise of your criticism.

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I think this perspective is fairly naive and ignores the reality of how applied science and engineering work in universities today. You're talking about 17th century scientists, but the reality is that in the middle of the 20th century there was a tremendous shift to applied sciences -- computer science being one of those fields -- with the goal of producing useful innovations. The whole point of my bl…

>Most academics are trying to do work that is relevant to industry, That is certainly not what most academics think.

Bullshit.

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#147
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point. I'm trying to draw a distinction between "speculative" research (which might pan out long term) and "industry-focused" research (which tries to solve problems we have today). My concern is not with speculative research -- that's great -- but rather flawed industry-focused research: making incorrect assumptions, failing to deal with the general case, not considering real-world constraints.

> making incorrect assumptions If it was easy to know when you make incorrect assumptions, nobody would.

Well, the whole point of my post is to give some tips on how not to.

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#148
post #12

Now, I don't think all academic research has to be relevant to industry. I'm getting kind of sick of this tactic, where this fake concession is made before going on about how academia isn't designed well enough to deliver to industry. If authors of articles like this didn't care about the efficiency of academia to deliver them research, what's the big deal if there are a bunch of people somewhere running around in ci…

(I'm the author of the original blog post.) Ad hominem attacks aside, I do think it's a big deal if a bunch of academics are spending time working on the wrong things, if for no better reason than maximizing efficiency: Don't forget that most academic research is funded by the government. Since I also happen to help decide which research proposals Google funds, I also care that academics are well-aligned with the pro…

Hmm, I wouldn't write off the value of "bad industry-focused" research too quickly.

"Industry focused" doesn't necessarily mean it's looking to push the needle of industry much yet. Often the first paper academics and students do in an area will really be about trying to take an industry problem into the lab, to see if they can prod it and discover what's interesting about it. Not yet about trying to push their research out into industry. Little experiments are how we get to look at new problems for the first time when we're not close enough to buy you a beer. And little papers are how we get to start discussing what we're doing with our peers at other universities. In a sense, where start-ups have Minimum Viable Products, PhD students and academics have Smallest Publishable Activities to start exploring a new area ;)

Sabbaticals and internships are a lovely idea, but it's increasingly hard to get universities to give leave to do that. (Backfilling an academic's teaching can be surprisingly hard to arrange, and then there's the academic's service roles for the university, their PhD, masters, and honours students, etc) So I expect most academics will always have many more research interests than sabbaticals / placements.

Ok, those are the constraints - on to the value:

Most universities do focus fairly heavily on industries in their area. (eg, agriculture in regional areas). But it's not a good idea for all their research to focus on that. If we teach in an area, we want to be at least somewhat research-active in it, as that's how we keep teaching from stagnating. And in lots of countries, students find it too expensive to move far from home, so they study at a uni they're in the catchment for. So unless we want to shrink the future pool of employees to children who grew up in academic-beer-buying-reach of a company in that industry, we really do need some research happening at universities outside beer-buying distance. Which means you'll get a bunch of "bad industry research" papers as they first explore the area.

You might not want a new multi-hop algorithm. But a graduating masters student who's designed their own multi-hop algorithm with different characteristics, and undergrads having had some exposure to the problem...

And sure, the interaction design student might only have developed their app for one mobile platform, not several, and only tested it with a dozen people not a million. But really that's because we figure it's probably sensible to find out if it was even worth writing for one platform, before we spend so much of that government-funded time on writing it to work across several...

There's quite a few things industry, such as Google, could do to help if you're keen to make the match between research and industry closer. One is to disseminate your problems, not just your libraries.

If Google emailed "here's a good small problem and project we'd be interested in" (a different problem to each university), I doubt there is a CS department in the world that would refuse to offer it as a project for their honours students. (Which means the faculty who supervise the students would be looking at the problem with interest too.) The academics would just need to know it's a unique problem for them -- that they're not being asked to compete with an unknown number of other honours students and academics around the world on the same problem (which really would be inefficient as well as unfair on the students).

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#149
> I still serve on program committees and review articles for journals and the like.

Judging academia from your experience on program committees is like judging the entertainment industry from watching Britain's Got Talent.

Re: Academics, we need to talk

#150

Now, I don't think all academic research has to be relevant to industry. I'm getting kind of sick of this tactic, where this fake concession is made before going on about how academia isn't designed well enough to deliver to industry. If authors of articles like this didn't care about the efficiency of academia to deliver them research, what's the big deal if there are a bunch of people somewhere running around in ci…

I'm getting kind of sick of this tactic, where this fake concession is made before going on about how academia isn't designed well enough to deliver to industry. This +1, er +1,000,000. I would firmly state that academia by definition is not supposed to 'deliver to industry', and not even to society. The whole point of academia is to give the very smartest people (whatever that means) the freedom to explore ideas, so…

I think you and Matt are talking about different kinds of research. He's specifically talking about incremental research in computer systems. And he's 100% right that most of such work has zero impact, both over the short term and long term. I didn't read this essay as a condemnation of research in general, especially not of what he describes as "visionary, out-of-the-box, push-the-envelope research." It's talking about "research" that is misguided and is not doing anything meaningful to advance knowledge.
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