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The internet has made defensive writers of us all

pchiusano.github.io

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Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#151

Post by kelukelugames »

outis wrote: post #145
kelukelugames wrote: post #6

I feel compelled to write about race issues because I am a person of color. The issues directly impact my life. But I'm afraid because readers might be pissed off enough to get me fired. :/

You're being dishonest here. Your choice of words paints a certain picture, but we all know what kind of people get people fired for their controversial opinions, and they wouldn't go after a self-described poc for talking about race. The example you give further down ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10859834 ) shows that you know how it works in practice, which is why I'm saying "dishonest" rather than "confus…

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I don't know what kind of people you mean. I don't know what you think I know what works in practice.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#152

Post by kornish »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #139
kornish wrote: post #13

A great quote from the article: "The defensive writing style also encourages another sort of ugliness, which is that “avoiding saying something wrong” becomes a primary focus of the writing, rather than communicating or exploring ideas which the author might himself be unsure of." One thing that's great about Gwern Branwen's writing is that Gwern's essays are accompanied by a "belief tag". That tag gives the ability…

I absolutely love the "belief tags" / "epistemic status" annotations. Gwern stole his "belief tags" from[0] (I link it because there's a cool article there worth checking out), and Scott Alexander has also adopted them. This sort of matches the way I personally thing about information and my own opinions. Back in my head I always have this feeling of "degree of confidence", of how sure I am about what I'm saying, and…

Thanks for the link, that's fascinating read!

It seems that many people who I would call "intellectually honest" end up developing speech patterns to avoid (1) speaking in absolutes; and (2) making statements of opinion articulated as statements of fact. An example of (1) is to use the words "many" or "most" instead of "all". An example of (2) is to start opinions with "I think".

Those speech patterns, though, can lead to writing which is bland and less than forceful, full of justifications with no interesting assertions to be found. One huge plus of this belief metadata, as you note, is that it frees the author to make bold and daring statements (and hopefully back them up) without committing to the truth of those statements. I think it can make for great writing – the style of strong and passionate assertion mixed with (via the disclaimer) the sensibilities of a reasoned opinion.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#153

Post by colmvp »

ghaff wrote: post #122
squeaky-clean wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure we could all name columnists/bloggers who are more interested in being controversial than in being correct I can't name any, so your comment is wrong, and I don't care to respond to the rest of it, or even acknowledge that I read it. Of course I don't really mean that, but I feel this is the kind of pedantry the article is talking about, and not true factual incorrectness. The Twitter account linked to onl…

A vocal minority will always yell at you. Fuck 'em and ignore 'em. Edit: I've written in a relatively public sphere, albeit not at politics level, for long enough to have a pretty thick skin. I realize not everyone is in that position.

Saying fuck'em and ignore'em is overly simplistic. Some people can do it. Most can't. Even athletes who earn millions of dollars and have hundreds of thousands of fans can get riled up by words from a single hater.

At a Social Anxiety meetup, I remember one person who could in great detail recall a racist incident years back when a random person called the person a racially derogative word. Sure, he could've just shrugged it off as it was just a stranger and all. Yet it had a profound effect.

Just as much as words from strangers can inspire us to commit profound change, so can words do great damage.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#155

Post by intopieces »

Since integrating shutup.css [0] in my browsers, my experience on websites with comments sections has been much more pleasurable. It's very good at recognizing comments sections and completely removing them.

I wish more sites disabled them and instead opened their blogs up to well-thought out letters to the editor.

[0]https://stevenf.com/shutupcss/

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#156

Post by gaius »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #140
gaius wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be brave person indeed who put their faith in this on the public internet.

Bravery is overrated. You learn to pick your battles and your opponents - you either talk just to charitable people, or under the protection of the Mighty Banhammer wielded by a charitable mod.

Who's the mod on Twitter say? You will encounter people on there who actively choose to follow the opposite of that principle. That's what I mean by public.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#157

Post by jandrese »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #15
kornish wrote: post #13

A great quote from the article: "The defensive writing style also encourages another sort of ugliness, which is that “avoiding saying something wrong” becomes a primary focus of the writing, rather than communicating or exploring ideas which the author might himself be unsure of." One thing that's great about Gwern Branwen's writing is that Gwern's essays are accompanied by a "belief tag". That tag gives the ability…

It's one of the surprising side-effects of the Internet that anything whatsoever you might say in a public forum can potentially offend someone, somewhere, somehow.

I've been banned from a few forums for not toeing the line on the moderator's personal agenda. It comes with the territory of discovering as you get older that other people are sometimes just crazy and you shouldn't feed the crazy.

I mean that literally. These people have mental health issues and they want you to bend over backwards to accommodate them out of a sense of guilt or something. You shouldn't do it. You're just enabling the sickness. It's like those guys who keep running out for more Twinkies even after their partner has grown so large that they can't fit through the door of the bedroom and are trapped.

If someone is claiming that your use of regular English adverbs is triggering their PTSD then they are the ones with the problem, not you.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#158

Post by jandrese »

kornish wrote: post #152
TeMPOraL wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely love the "belief tags" / "epistemic status" annotations. Gwern stole his "belief tags" from[0] (I link it because there's a cool article there worth checking out), and Scott Alexander has also adopted them. This sort of matches the way I personally thing about information and my own opinions. Back in my head I always have this feeling of "degree of confidence", of how sure I am about what I'm saying, and…

Thanks for the link, that's fascinating read! It seems that many people who I would call "intellectually honest" end up developing speech patterns to avoid (1) speaking in absolutes; and (2) making statements of opinion articulated as statements of fact. An example of (1) is to use the words "many" or "most" instead of "all". An example of (2) is to start opinions with "I think". Those speech patterns, though, can le…

I'm having trouble justifying the tradeoff between: "That's well reasoned but far too wishy washy" and "So forceful! So eloquent! Factually wrong but the way you said it completely sold it to me! Amazing!"

It's Obama vs. Trump.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#159

Post by kazinator »

jandrese wrote: post #157
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of the surprising side-effects of the Internet that anything whatsoever you might say in a public forum can potentially offend someone, somewhere, somehow.

I've been banned from a few forums for not toeing the line on the moderator's personal agenda. It comes with the territory of discovering as you get older that other people are sometimes just crazy and you shouldn't feed the crazy. I mean that literally. These people have mental health issues and they want you to bend over backwards to accommodate them out of a sense of guilt or something. You shouldn't do it. You're…

> people are sometimes just crazy and you shouldn't feed the crazy

Those that ban people out of forums believe they are following same principle.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#160

Post by decisiveness »

I'm unclear on whether the author is yearning to become blase about whether his ideas are valid, criticizing his own writing, blaming his pandering statements on imbeciles, or being cleverly ironic.

He laments having to tone down something he thinks might be interpreted "uncharitably", and in the very next sentence blames it on those who commit "uncharitable actions".

> At times I’ve been tempted to just turn off comments entirely on my blog, and just flat out avoid participating in comment threads on the web

I can relate to internet commenting frustrations, but this conveys real issues with hearing any dissenting opinion. Turning off comments altogether on your blog is like fearfully plugging your ears with your fingers to drown out anything that might be valid criticism.

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