Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#21

Post by aranazo » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:18 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #18

butterfinger wrote: post #14

Another point that this article does not discuss is that in many of the "less coercive" societies, schizophrenia or related diseases are not seen as a disease or problematic at all. McKenna writes: "A shaman is someone who swims in the same ocean as the schizophrenic, but the shaman has thousands and thousands of years of sanctioned technique and tradition to draw upon. In a traditional society, if you exhibited “sch…

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

> ...as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures...

Isn't that quite a strong claim?

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#22

Post by hderms » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #18

butterfinger wrote: post #14

Another point that this article does not discuss is that in many of the "less coercive" societies, schizophrenia or related diseases are not seen as a disease or problematic at all. McKenna writes: "A shaman is someone who swims in the same ocean as the schizophrenic, but the shaman has thousands and thousands of years of sanctioned technique and tradition to draw upon. In a traditional society, if you exhibited “sch…

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

Yeah, but what if it was substituted with art, or something similar. It's possible to produce a society which values mentally ill people without necessarily coercing them.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#23

Post by WhatIsDukkha » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #6

cryoshon wrote: post #2

FTA: "Throughout history, societies have existed with far less coercion than ours, and while these societies have had far less consumer goods and what modernity calls “efficiency,” they also have had far less mental illness. This reality has been buried, not surprisingly, by uncritical champions of modernity and mainstream psychiatry. Coercion—the use of physical, legal, chemical, psychological, financial, and other…

I'd like to see some concrete evidence that people in the past did in fact had "far less mental illness", and it is not just a result of them not being diagnosed. Most of the mental illnesses we know have been defined within last 100 years. In the past they may as well have been known as anything from demonic possession, and magic, to being stupid, being a brawler or a person ill-disposed. Secondly, I wouldn't undere…

It would be good to remember that he is largely drawing from hunter gatherer societies and not just "in the past" as you describe his thesis.

While valuable to look at, these agrarian and proto industrial societies also had large amounts of coercion.

As I read the other posts I see too many people wanting to T/F this thesis whereas I think it real value is as a critical tool to examine societies and the minds that have to learn to live in them.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#24

Post by api » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

butterfinger wrote: post #14

Another point that this article does not discuss is that in many of the "less coercive" societies, schizophrenia or related diseases are not seen as a disease or problematic at all. McKenna writes: "A shaman is someone who swims in the same ocean as the schizophrenic, but the shaman has thousands and thousands of years of sanctioned technique and tradition to draw upon. In a traditional society, if you exhibited “sch…

I love McKenna's raps but I really disagree with him here. I doubt he had much experience with actual schizophrenia, which is horrific and debilitating, and I doubt shamans present or past actually had it. Psychedelic drugs induce a superficially schizophrenia-like state but it's transient and may not actually be much like schizophrenia at all. Visionary, trance, and highly imaginative states are not schizophrenia or even indicative of mental illness.

Real schizophrenia is a hell of paranoia and anxiety and I doubt anyone with a severe case could heal or make art or any of the other things a traditional shaman might do.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#25

Post by krapp » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

aranazo wrote: post #21

krapp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

> ...as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures... Isn't that quite a strong claim?

If it is, it's backed up by quite a bit of evidence.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#26

Post by WhatIsDukkha » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:29 PM UTC

gooftop wrote: post #16

Not clear to me if the article implies that totalitarian societies have more coercion - but if it does, should a country like China have more mental illness? I don't know if thats the case, at least in percentage of entire population. What does that mean for the central hypothesis of the article and its validity?

China is an interesting case of thousands of years of relatively modern social order with high coercion in many ways.

However, it's also a society that maintained high levels of family and clan based organization which counterbalance the atomization and individuality that you see in modern "Washington Consensus" societies.

I highly recommend "The Search for Modern China" if you are truly interested in thinking about these things in context. It's very pleasing and readable.

Modern China isn't as straightforwardly authoritarian as you might want to compare against.

North Korea might be a better choice.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#27

Post by PaulHoule » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

wickedgain wrote: post #13

PaulHoule wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have Met-158 thank god I am not like that crazy killer family from the Netherlands. I am hetero at SNP rs1800497.

How did you find out?

23andme. It's funny because I always thought I was some kind of X-Man.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#28

Post by snowwrestler » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

aranazo wrote: post #21

krapp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

> ...as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures... Isn't that quite a strong claim?

No stronger than the claim that such things do exist.

It seems fair that an assertion offered without proof can be dismissed without proof.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#29

Post by krapp » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:40 PM UTC

hderms wrote: post #22

krapp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

Yeah, but what if it was substituted with art, or something similar. It's possible to produce a society which values mentally ill people without necessarily coercing them.

What if they don't want to make art? Being mentally ill doesn't necessarily grant one creative insight. What if they exhibit antisocial or violent behavior?

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#30

Post by butterfinger » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:41 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #18

butterfinger wrote: post #14

Another point that this article does not discuss is that in many of the "less coercive" societies, schizophrenia or related diseases are not seen as a disease or problematic at all. McKenna writes: "A shaman is someone who swims in the same ocean as the schizophrenic, but the shaman has thousands and thousands of years of sanctioned technique and tradition to draw upon. In a traditional society, if you exhibited “sch…

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

But is it any more coercive than putting those kids into psychiatric care and putting them on drugs that just make them not feel anything anymore?

I'm schizotypal myself and I can say those methods of coping with this have not helped me at all. By now, I understand most of my paranormal thoughts are just windows into the unconcious mind. I think that having a centuries old tradition of identifying and using these thoughts would have helped me better than talking to psychiatrists that don't have the slightest clue about what goes on in my mind.