Live data from Hacker News

The internet has made defensive writers of us all

pchiusano.github.io

81–90 of 186 posts

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#81
post #80

As engineers, we are hardwired to nitpick. Coming up with counter-examples is the default response. Instead, I try to say a supporting example first. This helps me learn from other people's point of view. Edit: Though I admit I don't do the best job on HN. :/

> As engineers, we are hardwired to nitpick. This is just not true. You are not 'hard wired' to react in such a specific manner, and being an engineer does not mean ripping things apart. You may be an engineer and choose to make a joke about something. You may be an engineer and something may make you go off and learn about something you didn't know about before. You may be an engineer and react in all sorts of ways…

[deleted]

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#82

I am fairly new to Y-Combinators Hacker News. Unfortunately, I've run head-long into this very issue on this forum. It ruins the experience. There is value in communicating figuratively and/or with metaphors. When creatively solving problems, looking for trends or drawing a hypothesis out of the ether, it is often desirable to avoid specifics. In my opinion, one's inability to comprehend and respond to any given stat…

I think that HN is one of the rare forums where this article doesn't apply. Usually the top comment in a particular thread contains the least hedges and most enthusiastically espouses a particular opinion. The comment is not usually overly bombastic (though it sometimes is). The comment almost always adopts the majority opinion on HN. Posting a comment not aligned with the majority opinion carries a risk of at most -…

> I think that HN is one of the rare forums where this article doesn't apply.

It does apply. Maybe less so years ago, but it still applies. I've seen it often enough, and recognized the problems as ones I routinely see here.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#83

I am fairly new to Y-Combinators Hacker News. Unfortunately, I've run head-long into this very issue on this forum. It ruins the experience. There is value in communicating figuratively and/or with metaphors. When creatively solving problems, looking for trends or drawing a hypothesis out of the ether, it is often desirable to avoid specifics. In my opinion, one's inability to comprehend and respond to any given stat…

I think that HN is one of the rare forums where this article doesn't apply. Usually the top comment in a particular thread contains the least hedges and most enthusiastically espouses a particular opinion. The comment is not usually overly bombastic (though it sometimes is). The comment almost always adopts the majority opinion on HN. Posting a comment not aligned with the majority opinion carries a risk of at most -…

carries a risk of at most -4 points.

I do not know if this is true. I have read that, although it only shows up to -4, it can cost you more than that. I have no idea if that information is still true or not. A lot of the algorithms have changed.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#84
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That creates bland writing and the process of correcting every little deviation is so pedantic that it provides a strong incentive to stop writing. Both of these problems result in a world where we learn less, grow less, and take fewer risks with our writing. What is wrong with truly being charitable, assuming the absolute best intentions and giving writers the license to deviate a little to let them make a point?

Nothing is wrong with being charitable. Some statements are just wrong, or there is no assumption of best intentions that can satisfy the claims being made. What is wrong with not writing blatantly false statements or calling out wrong statements for being wrong (or, asking for a correction)? There is a reason compilers cannot take arbitrary text and produce the program you are 'actually' thinking of.

"Perfect is the enemy of good", perfection isn't always necessary for effective communication, and the perceived intent of the writer usually matters more. If you think the writer is trying to mislead someone, or they said something that you think will lead to misunderstandings of something important, then call them out or ask for a correction. I took the post as being more about "the writer didn't cover all the edge cases" than about "the writer wrote something intentionally false/wrong/misleading".

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#85
This is why I don't have comments on my own blog. I love discussion and appreciate it where it belongs, like hacker news and reddit, but if I'm writing it is my own outlet and I really don't want other people to see what other people think about what I write. I prefer people come up with their own opinions. If they want to discuss, they can message me.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#86
I'm not sure I buy this argument at all. I've certainly heard the argument enough times that it's less critical to get everything right on the first pass on the Web because you can always update it. I'm not a particular fan of this mindset but it's out there. And I'd note it's the offline pubs that are far more likely to still have people in a fact checker role--however vestigial. And making errors of fact too many times was more than frowned upon at traditional newspapers.

Having said that, a lot depends on the person and the context. I'm sure we could all name columnists/bloggers who are more interested in being controversial than in being correct; some predate online publishing though. On the other hand, there are some contexts where you don't to state bald opinions that you can't back up. I'm not convinced any of this has to do with Web or non-Web.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walter you used a capital P. This means the group, not individual people. "People" the group are smarter than any "dog". "Babies" the group are smarter than any dog too :)

You two just demonstrate my point.

I know - hence why I am having some fun with you :)

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#88
post #80

As engineers, we are hardwired to nitpick. Coming up with counter-examples is the default response. Instead, I try to say a supporting example first. This helps me learn from other people's point of view. Edit: Though I admit I don't do the best job on HN. :/

> As engineers, we are hardwired to nitpick. This is just not true. You are not 'hard wired' to react in such a specific manner, and being an engineer does not mean ripping things apart. You may be an engineer and choose to make a joke about something. You may be an engineer and something may make you go off and learn about something you didn't know about before. You may be an engineer and react in all sorts of ways…

Your comment here rather illustrates the point, I think. :)

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#89

I am fairly new to Y-Combinators Hacker News. Unfortunately, I've run head-long into this very issue on this forum. It ruins the experience. There is value in communicating figuratively and/or with metaphors. When creatively solving problems, looking for trends or drawing a hypothesis out of the ether, it is often desirable to avoid specifics. In my opinion, one's inability to comprehend and respond to any given stat…

There is value in communicating figuratively and/or with metaphors. When creatively solving problems, looking for trends or drawing a hypothesis out of the ether, it is often desirable to avoid specifics.

I raised a couple of incredibly pedantic sons. I am someone prone to using metaphors and communicating figuratively. I learned to up my game and use more accurate metaphors that do not count on the audience already having a good idea of what I am talking about so as to let me get away with real hand-wavy, vague comparisons.

My oldest is pretty aspie. In trying to explain anger and social stuff to him, I once tried to talk about anger being like fire and explosions. He knew too much science and not enough social skills. It resulted in him leaping to bizarre conclusions (think: "If you rub two people together, they ignite" type conclusions). I was all "Uhhh. No. Forget I said anything. Let me think about this and get back to you."

If your figure of speech or metaphor is not horrendously sloppy, it can still be used here. If you are getting a lot of flack here for such things, consider the possibility that simply isn't a great comparison point and try to think more clearly about the subject and come up with a better means to express it.

HN can be kind of rough to adjust to at first. So I do have sympathy. But, in general, the overall intent of such practices here is to improve accuracy and level of discussion. It mostly isn't just asshattery.

And welcome to HN!

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#90
I'm seeing way, way, waaaaaay too many commenters here who apparently came away from this thinking that "defensive writing", as described by the author, has anything to do with not offending people. That's totally orthogonal to what the author is talking about. He's talking about the tendency some people have to take everything as literally as possible, finding some logical hole in an argument based on a very literal (and often wrong) interpretation, and then start stupid inflammatory debates in comment threads about it. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with political correctness, although people saying so really deliciously proves his point.

The root of it is sometimes that an author didn't express something very well. In general though, it's because some readers are predisposed to find the most literal and uncharitable interpretation of something they read, which they then use as an excuse to try to show up the author in the comments. These types of commenters are the types of people who don't assume good faith on the part of other people, and when they see something that doesn't make sense to them their first thought is that the person who wrote it is an idiot, rather than to step back and take a moment to think about what the author might've meant. These types of commenters are looking for excuses to publicly disagree with someone, they're not trying to participate in an exploratory discussion in which the participants don't automatically assume the worst about each other.

For example, what if someone made an offhand comment about C being the de facto standard for systems programming for the last few decades? On certain forums, it is pretty much guaranteed that someone will chime in about all of the various kernels, research OSes, etc. that have been and are currently being written in languages other than C, and proceed to argue with the poster about this fact. Of course, they're right in a sense- it's true that C accounts for And it pretty much goes downhill from there. Overly Literal Internet Guy #2 then has to chime in and attack Overly Literal Internet Guy #1 over some other strawman based on an uncharitable interpretation of what #1 wrote.

Point being, the entire discussion gets derailed by a handful of people who refuse to give each other the benefit of the doubt and just really want to argue. We could have been talking about why C is such a juggernaut in the systems programming world, or what other languages might make sense for systems programming, or any number of other interesting digressions. But noooooo, we can't have nice things because a few people just want to scream at the author and each other about willful, overly literal misinterpretations of what was written. As a result, many writers will warp their style to put hedges and defensive qualifiers around every single statement to avoid all discussion getting derailed by Overly-Literal-Internet-Guys-Who-Think-Everyone-Is-Else-Is-An-Idiot. By the time all of those qualifiers and hedges go in, it's possible that the point of the original statement is diluted or lost entirely.

And of course, in what I've just written, I myself am no doubt guilty of assuming bad faith on the part of other people and am just as guilty of the behavior I'm complaining about. I get it, I really do. This is a type of cognitive bias that everyone has, including myself. There are no easy answers when it comes to understanding human interactions or our own mental processes, we can only try our best. I only take issue with people who think they are infallible and don't even try to play devil's advocate with themselves when thinking about things they care about.

Post reply on HN