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Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

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Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#41

Post by evanpw »

lomnakkus wrote: post #8
eterm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it's easier to value time over money if you have a lot of money and your time is highly valued.

... but it should be noted that there's a leveling-off as well. Once you're basically living comfortably and have the requisite free time, more money alone doesn't actually make you any happier. (Too tired to look up the research references, but I'm pretty sure there are some pretty solid findings out there on e.g. lottery winners, wealthy people, etc.)

You have to distinguish between happiness as emotional well-being (i.e., do you have more happy or sad moments on an average day), vs happiness as life satisfaction (i.e., how happy are you with how your life is going in general).

There's some evidence that the former measure plateaus at some income level, but there's also significant evidence that the latter doesn't: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#42

Post by orthoganol »

jerguismi wrote: post #27
orthoganol wrote: post #18

I've shunned founding startups or working at startups for the last ~3 years, and instead worked 15-20 hr/wk usually remotely. Time is your greatest asset, personally and professionally. It's how you stay abreast of the great opportunities of our time. You need that freedom to explore things that pique your interest or move you. Founding a startup means becoming mostly blind to the other great opportunities, which is…

Weird stance. Startups are not really about money. They are about greater risk. For a startup founder it is not unusual to spend a lot of time, and still make zero money. And it is also possible to spend only couple of years, and make so much money that you can leisurely work for couple of days a month, and go surfing for the rest of the month. And do that same thing for the rest of your life. As an employee you will…

I'm not sure I understand your position. They entail risk, but they aren't motivated by risk, they don't exist because of risk.

> Startups are not really about money

I agree,

> Only do it if... you believe you're changing the world in the greatest way you can

They are about pursuing a vision. Even YC has said they dislike opportunists, and for good reasons (they make bad startups).

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#43

Post by jjp »

roymurdock wrote: post #23

I searched for the phrase "diminishing marginal returns" but could not find it in the article which seems like a bit of an omission. This is a fundamental economic concept - the more of something you have, the less value you derive from each incremental unit. So, based on personal preferences, once you reach a certain level of income you will start to substitute away from labor (income) towards leisure/free time (non…

Remembering my high school economics, from too many years ago, we used the term backward bending supply curve of labour - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_bending_supply_curve_...

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#44

Post by orthoganol »

hellameta wrote: post #26
orthoganol wrote: post #18

I've shunned founding startups or working at startups for the last ~3 years, and instead worked 15-20 hr/wk usually remotely. Time is your greatest asset, personally and professionally. It's how you stay abreast of the great opportunities of our time. You need that freedom to explore things that pique your interest or move you. Founding a startup means becoming mostly blind to the other great opportunities, which is…

> which is why I'm so reluctant to do a startup, unless I think it's "the one." IYO indeed. That you have found your way of doing things is wonderful and also incredibly lucky. That you consider opportunity cost a universally objective measure is complete fantasy though. TL;DR: Always be highly skeptical of anyone claiming their way of life is the right way to live.

I'm proposing a very general rule, certainly, but I think you would still agree there are better and worse ways of spending your time.

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#45

Post by hammock »

roymurdock wrote: post #23

I searched for the phrase "diminishing marginal returns" but could not find it in the article which seems like a bit of an omission. This is a fundamental economic concept - the more of something you have, the less value you derive from each incremental unit. So, based on personal preferences, once you reach a certain level of income you will start to substitute away from labor (income) towards leisure/free time (non…

>"diminishing marginal returns"

I came to a different conclusion. The wealth of time (total man-hours or aggregated lifespans) is more evenly distributed across a population than is the wealth of money. Therefore, to the extent that happiness is influenced by comparing how well-off you are vs others, a person picked at random will be pretty damn close to the same standing as whoever is the Time-Richest Person in the World. But they are FAR less likely to be anywhere near the Money-Richest Person in the World.

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#46

Post by zeroonetwothree »

lomnakkus wrote: post #8
eterm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it's easier to value time over money if you have a lot of money and your time is highly valued.

... but it should be noted that there's a leveling-off as well. Once you're basically living comfortably and have the requisite free time, more money alone doesn't actually make you any happier. (Too tired to look up the research references, but I'm pretty sure there are some pretty solid findings out there on e.g. lottery winners, wealthy people, etc.)

This is not really true. It's just an artifact of the way happiness research is done. There's no cap on income, but typically happiness is rated from 1-10. Thus you see a "leveling off". If you use a log scale you actually see a continuous increase.

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#47

Post by JimboOmega »

camelNotation wrote: post #13
finstell wrote: post #7

Money is nothing if you have it. Money is everything if you don't have it.

People say that and it seems true to some extent, but financially, people rarely fall into the categories of "limitless wealth" and "not a penny to my name." It's almost like a false dichotomy is being implied by this statement, claiming that if you don't prioritize money, you will be left penniless and ruined. That simply isn't true. There are a wide range of conditions between wealth and poverty and studies like th…

I think studies have shown that past a relatively low (by SV standards) level of income ($75kish I think) the relationship between money and happiness breaks down.

The argument can definitely be made that the happiness difference between "comfortable and independent" and "Zuckerberg" is not all that great.

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#48

Post by marvin »

todorstoyanov wrote: post #35
whiddershins wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a poor risk/reward ratio there. It takes way too long for the average startup to be successful, and the overwhelming majority of them aren't successful enough to provide the economic freedom you are referring to. If you can love the chase of a startup, and love the thrill and long hours, great! If you are doing it so you can have "more free time later" there are many many better strategies.

Good point. Can you share some?

Here's one: Get a high-paying software job in a high COL area, work for a decade or so while minimizing your expenses (live cheaply/with friends) and investing as much as possible in a diversified stock market portfolio.

Then when you're sick of it, move to a cheaper area, get a part-time job and sell 3-4% of your assets every year to make up for the deficit. If you're lucky, the safe withdrawal rate of 3-4% will even be enough (or close) to have the ability to quit working for a living completely. Or perhaps your part-time job can cover all your expenses and you can just keep letting your portfolio grow at the expected long-term rate of 6-7% per year.

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#49

Post by cspags »

todorstoyanov wrote: post #35
whiddershins wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a poor risk/reward ratio there. It takes way too long for the average startup to be successful, and the overwhelming majority of them aren't successful enough to provide the economic freedom you are referring to. If you can love the chase of a startup, and love the thrill and long hours, great! If you are doing it so you can have "more free time later" there are many many better strategies.

Good point. Can you share some?

Here's one good article I've read on achieving economic freedom: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...

Re: Valuing time over money is associated with greater happiness

#50

Post by orthoganol »

sanderjd wrote: post #21
orthoganol wrote: post #18

I've shunned founding startups or working at startups for the last ~3 years, and instead worked 15-20 hr/wk usually remotely. Time is your greatest asset, personally and professionally. It's how you stay abreast of the great opportunities of our time. You need that freedom to explore things that pique your interest or move you. Founding a startup means becoming mostly blind to the other great opportunities, which is…

Out of curiosity: do you do contracting / consulting work, or have you found a stable 15-20 hr/wk job? I think the latter sounds excellent, while the former sounds stressful.

I have stable clients. I've only had 2 main ones over the last 3 years. I think there are maybe some misconceptions about what a consulting life must be like. I agree it does sound stressful if it were my long term goal, but it is not, it's primarily a type of life that keeps me as open as possible to finding something truly worth pursuing (IMO at least), which may or may not take the form of a startup. I have my candidates here, which change as I learn.
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