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The internet has made defensive writers of us all

pchiusano.github.io

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Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#11

Post by kelukelugames »

erichmond wrote: post #9
kelukelugames wrote: post #6

I feel compelled to write about race issues because I am a person of color. The issues directly impact my life. But I'm afraid because readers might be pissed off enough to get me fired. :/

Sadly, if you live in the states, you are likely correct to feel that way. I haven't had many racial incidents in the tech workplace, but I have had enough to understand that it definitely could be held against you in the long term.

I wrote a few sentences about gender equality at my last job for the company blog. Some people didn't like it so they escalated it to the CTO without contacting me. As a result, the editor who approved my piece was super stressed and apologetic. She quit a few months later. I wasn't surprised.

They wanted me to add the word "more" to the title of the second point. Which makes sense, but that's literally a one minute conversation. My boss was like "Sorry for going behind your back. I didn't realize you were going to find out."

https://www.redfin.com/blog/2014/10/why-i-work-at-redfin-kev...

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#12

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

I get the feeling a reactionary effect has been an increase of traffic on anonymous image boards like 4chan. There the only value you have is in your argument; there is no profile to judge.

People can say whatever they want there - and they certainly do - but if their argument is invalid or poorly constructed it is shot down or ignored, which serves as a lesson about the strength of a point made in a sterile environment. Of course there are plenty of trolls and people who argue the opposite point for the lulz, but that's just a cost of the medium.

There is no perfect form of communication. If there was, we'd all be using it.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#13

Post by kornish »

A great quote from the article:

"The defensive writing style also encourages another sort of ugliness, which is that “avoiding saying something wrong” becomes a primary focus of the writing, rather than communicating or exploring ideas which the author might himself be unsure of."

One thing that's great about Gwern Branwen's writing is that Gwern's essays are accompanied by a "belief tag". That tag gives the ability to say "This essay is exploratory; I don't have a high degree of confidence that it's canonically true." Details here: http://www.gwern.net/About#belief-tags

Having the option to dissociate ideas from one's person can give a lot of freedom to put contrarian ideas out there and spark debate in search of the Truth without fearing personal attack. Indeed, one of the things that I consider to make a healthy company culture is that ideas can be criticized without the people behind the ideas feeling criticized themselves.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#14

Post by jonahx »

dustingetz wrote: post #7

This is a startup opportunity and can be solved through UX and richer moderation tools. UX influences user behavior. One small example, a richer moderation system that captures -1 because violation of HN guideline #6 "avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them could short circuit entire flamewar threads. I think a psychologist could probably build the right UX…

good rules and UI can help, but good UI won't change the way people are, and for any given set of rules, people motivated by strong emotions will find creative ways to break the rules to get their needs satisfied.

the only 100% reliable solution is to completely remove their freedom of expression (eg, with an all-powerful moderator, whose interpretation of the rules is law).

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#15

Post by Florin_Andrei »

kornish wrote: post #13

A great quote from the article: "The defensive writing style also encourages another sort of ugliness, which is that “avoiding saying something wrong” becomes a primary focus of the writing, rather than communicating or exploring ideas which the author might himself be unsure of." One thing that's great about Gwern Branwen's writing is that Gwern's essays are accompanied by a "belief tag". That tag gives the ability…

It's one of the surprising side-effects of the Internet that anything whatsoever you might say in a public forum can potentially offend someone, somewhere, somehow.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#16

Post by madaxe_again »

We have conversations like we're bickering over the interpretation of a specification, and it's every bit as painful sometimes.

As the author says, wilful misinterpretation seems to be the name of the game, and we almost all seem to be guilty of it from time to time.

It's easy to be a dick when you're not looking someone in the eyes.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#17

Post by tacos »

jbob2000 wrote: post #4

Context is really important in communication. When speaking with someone face to face, you pick up on vocal intonations and body language to give you context to their speech. As well, knowing someone personally gives context to what they are saying. On the internet, you have none of those things, only text. I think we are hitting a wall with our written languages because they can't adequately communicate context. Emo…

I liked this exact comment when I first read it back in 1985. At least now I can upvote it. That's progress.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#18

Post by kelukelugames »

As engineers, we are hardwired to nitpick. Coming up with counter-examples is the default response. Instead, I try to say a supporting example first. This helps me learn from other people's point of view.

Edit: Though I admit I don't do the best job on HN. :/

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#19

Post by madaxe_again »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #15
kornish wrote: post #13

A great quote from the article: "The defensive writing style also encourages another sort of ugliness, which is that “avoiding saying something wrong” becomes a primary focus of the writing, rather than communicating or exploring ideas which the author might himself be unsure of." One thing that's great about Gwern Branwen's writing is that Gwern's essays are accompanied by a "belief tag". That tag gives the ability…

It's one of the surprising side-effects of the Internet that anything whatsoever you might say in a public forum can potentially offend someone, somewhere, somehow.

Look, I'm not being racist, but I am mortally offended. You know what you said.

Edit: in case you missed it, this was sarcastic.

Re: The internet has made defensive writers of us all

#20

Post by evincarofautumn »

kelukelugames wrote: post #18

As engineers, we are hardwired to nitpick. Coming up with counter-examples is the default response. Instead, I try to say a supporting example first. This helps me learn from other people's point of view. Edit: Though I admit I don't do the best job on HN. :/

I agree. Programming is an applied form of constructive logic. A program that works is an example (existence proof) that its specification (a theorem) can be fulfilled (proven). When we review code, we’re generally trying to disprove—looking for ways in which the program doesn’t fulfill the specification.
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