A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler • Hacker News Board

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#41

Post by kapilkaisare » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #39

bsder wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Actually, "do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality. It doesn't encompass things like when to punish bad actors, but it cov…

"do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality It's insidiously evil. Many of the root versions (and in particular, the early Zoroastrian version, which I think might predate others and was influential in religions that followed) were to not do to others that which is abhorrent to you, but this corruption of it turns it into something else entirely.

Would you elaborate? I'd like to understand why you see it as evil.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#42

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

jimrandomh wrote: post #17

Houshalter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazis weren't evil, but they were wrong. The whole "Jewish conspiracy" thing was bullshit. As was many of their beliefs. You could have Nazi values, and still disagree with the Nazis on a completely factual basis.

On the contrary, they absolutely were evil. It just turns out that evil doesn't look quite like we would have thought--hence the importance of studying history from primary sources, to know what evil actually looks like, to be able to recognize and oppose it today.

I don't agree. In my opinion, evil is something done selfishly, knowing it will harm others. If you are doing terrible things because you believe they are right, then you aren't evil. Just wrong, or deluded.

Granted, some of the things the Nazis did were evil, in the sense they were selfish. Valuing their own race and country above others, for example.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#43

Post by nibnib » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 4:26 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #28

madaxe_again wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it was - but it didn't start with them. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which was published in 1903 in Russia, kicked off that particular idea - and the nazis just ran with what popular thought already held. Also, true - going back to my grandmother, she's a raving anti-Semite, but has a Jewish daughter in law - and (now deceased) husband. The cognitive dissonance required is incredible, but common. She'll…

The same thing is rampant today. Rather educated, liberal people will claim that black people are, on average, more violent and less valuable as employees... but of course specific black people are fine. It's easy to do, you just have to rely on a little bad science and a lifetime of propaganda and that whole worldview seems sensible.

You don't understand the difference between averages and specific cases? Black people are, on average, taller... but specific black people are short.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#44

Post by Chris2048 » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 6:20 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #28

madaxe_again wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it was - but it didn't start with them. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which was published in 1903 in Russia, kicked off that particular idea - and the nazis just ran with what popular thought already held. Also, true - going back to my grandmother, she's a raving anti-Semite, but has a Jewish daughter in law - and (now deceased) husband. The cognitive dissonance required is incredible, but common. She'll…

The same thing is rampant today. Rather educated, liberal people will claim that black people are, on average, more violent and less valuable as employees... but of course specific black people are fine. It's easy to do, you just have to rely on a little bad science and a lifetime of propaganda and that whole worldview seems sensible.

Wouldn't doing the opposite to this be: to extrapolate what black people are like, based entirely on the ones you know?

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#45

Post by Marcomasino » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

Marcomasino wrote: post #33

Not another Newyorker article, sorry I can't take anymore, Dave, my mind is going, I can feel it .. I can feel it .. my mind is going .. there is no question about it :)

And apparently at least one commentator on Hacker News has no sense of humour :)

And if they don't agree with you, so rather than respond with a refutation they'll just downvote you instead.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#46

Post by EliRivers » Sun, Jan 10, 2016, 11:33 PM UTC

kapilkaisare wrote: post #41

EliRivers wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality It's insidiously evil. Many of the root versions (and in particular, the early Zoroastrian version, which I think might predate others and was influential in religions that followed) were to not do to others that which is abhorrent to you, but this corruption of it turns it into something else entirely.

Would you elaborate? I'd like to understand why you see it as evil.

It suggests that what you like having done to you is the correct thing to like, and that you're doing good works by forcing it on other people. It doesn't allow for the possibility that other people have different preferences; your preferences are the correct preferences and you are morally correct in applying them on others. Take this to extremes and you end up taking people's children away because they're being raised in the wrong culture, for example.