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A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

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31–40 of 46 posts

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazis weren't evil, but they were wrong. The whole "Jewish conspiracy" thing was bullshit. As was many of their beliefs. You could have Nazi values, and still disagree with the Nazis on a completely factual basis.

On the contrary, they absolutely were evil. It just turns out that evil doesn't look quite like we would have thought--hence the importance of studying history from primary sources, to know what evil actually looks like, to be able to recognize and oppose it today.

Evil is "good people" thinking "the ends justify the means".

"It's unfortunate we have to persecute these even the women and children, but it's required to make a more fair and just world."

"It's unfortunate we have to go to war in Iraq, but it's required to defend peace in the region, from the threat of mass weapons of destruction."

Of course, "the ends" are never achieved, because the "means" they use will cause even more problems to be solved.

Persecuting Jews to achieve justice and fairness for the German people => Destruction of Germany.

War in Iraq to remove dictatorship and mass weapons of destruction => Rogue terrorist group governing by coercion and hundreds and thousands of civilian deaths.

I ask you. What other examples of evil can you see in our world, today? What other evil things are people are doing in the name of good?

Most important to remember: Evil is stopped by being persistently good ourselves, even when pressured and coerced to do otherwise, and that's all that we have to do.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Hitler thought he was good. Those who followed him thought he was good. In the narrative and perceptive reality of nazi Germany he was good. My grandmother waxes lyrical about the…

Nicely flawed and lazy logic here. You don't have to take your reasoning much further to claim that all of human perception is relative, unprovable, and therefore basically nonexistent. You sound like a nihilist. As another poster pointed out, "do to unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a good baseline for determining whether an action is good or evil. I'm an atheist and I even realize this.

Nice ad hom. Works when you've nothing else to say, eh?

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it was - but it didn't start with them. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which was published in 1903 in Russia, kicked off that particular idea - and the nazis just ran with what popular thought already held. Also, true - going back to my grandmother, she's a raving anti-Semite, but has a Jewish daughter in law - and (now deceased) husband. The cognitive dissonance required is incredible, but common. She'll…

I do not think that necessarily relies on cognitive dissonance. For example, there are plenty of example you can point to of an American conspiracy to overthrow governments, but it is not not cognitive dissonance to believe that a particular American was not involved in it. The only reason that this logic does not apply to Jews is that their is no central hierarchy to Judaism, however it is still possible to believe…

Logic doesn't come into it.

No, as far as she is concerned all Jews are part of the conspiracy, all are a drain on society.

She gets around this not with "you're one of the good ones", but rather, "I like you, so you can't really be Jewish.".

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it was - but it didn't start with them. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which was published in 1903 in Russia, kicked off that particular idea - and the nazis just ran with what popular thought already held. Also, true - going back to my grandmother, she's a raving anti-Semite, but has a Jewish daughter in law - and (now deceased) husband. The cognitive dissonance required is incredible, but common. She'll…

The same thing is rampant today. Rather educated, liberal people will claim that black people are, on average, more violent and less valuable as employees... but of course specific black people are fine. It's easy to do, you just have to rely on a little bad science and a lifetime of propaganda and that whole worldview seems sensible.

From my point of view, the majority of the "propaganda" I witness in media in general, pushes the opposite view that you are claiming is influencing people. It's accepted ridiculously easily as well it seems to the point of being absurd. So I would say that neither side is immune to bias and propaganda. At the end of the day, I will only be against violent individuals, and not ones that hurt my feelings.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#38

I read Mein Kampf a few times as a kid. It's worthwhile - I ended up seeing hitler as a tragic, broken figure, tormented by his demons, skewed by his misplaced rage at the Weimar Republic, which lead to a path of destruction for millions. Until you understand that anyone can be Hitler, you don't understand.

Until you understand that anyone can be Hitler, you don't understand. Have you ever listened to his speeches, man? As in like, really listened? Go ahead, try it sometime. Claw your soul and your beating heart out through your very eardrums, he will. His talents in that realm were clearly from another plane. Lots of people (perhaps millions) have wanted to "be" the next Hitler. But in terms of sheer charisma and persu…

Yes, Hitler was an excellent speaker and a lousy writer. "Mein Kampf" is horrible to read and really needs an annotated version, which is still forbidden to purchase. And the millions of poisonous "Mein Kampf" books, which every couple got when they married are still in thousands of boxes.

The new foreign policy book from 1942 looks really interesting to me, foreseeing the US war, as the US industrials were major Hitler backers before the war and just had to back down when Hitler started attacking Great Britain. Also the ally Japan threatening Singapore didn't help winning the war. Would be interesting to see how he thought of holding "his friends", the US out of the war. Even Hitler knew that this would not be winnable in the long end.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#39
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Hitler thought he was good. Those who followed him thought he was good. In the narrative and perceptive reality of nazi Germany he was good. My grandmother waxes lyrical about the…

> I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Actually, "do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality. It doesn't encompass things like when to punish bad actors, but it cov…

"do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality

It's insidiously evil. Many of the root versions (and in particular, the early Zoroastrian version, which I think might predate others and was influential in religions that followed) were to not do to others that which is abhorrent to you, but this corruption of it turns it into something else entirely.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#40
post #6

> In his introduction to the “Second Book,” which was finally published officially in 2003, Weinberg wrote, “Germany and the rest of the world have not yet come close to coming to terms with Hitler as a person, as leader of a great nation, and as a symbol.” After each of the recent mass shootings, I've been wondering more and more about whether we aren't doing anything about it because it's so easy to just label the…

I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Hitler thought he was good. Those who followed him thought he was good. In the narrative and perceptive reality of nazi Germany he was good. My grandmother waxes lyrical about the…

There's an old anime called "Legend of the Galactic Heroes" that explores this very idea through the POVs of two sides in an interstellar war. Very good show, from what I've seen of it.
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