A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler • Hacker News Board

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#21

Post by gizmo686 » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 1:22 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #18

Houshalter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazis weren't evil, but they were wrong. The whole "Jewish conspiracy" thing was bullshit. As was many of their beliefs. You could have Nazi values, and still disagree with the Nazis on a completely factual basis.

Yes it was - but it didn't start with them. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which was published in 1903 in Russia, kicked off that particular idea - and the nazis just ran with what popular thought already held. Also, true - going back to my grandmother, she's a raving anti-Semite, but has a Jewish daughter in law - and (now deceased) husband. The cognitive dissonance required is incredible, but common. She'll…

I do not think that necessarily relies on cognitive dissonance.

For example, there are plenty of example you can point to of an American conspiracy to overthrow governments, but it is not not cognitive dissonance to believe that a particular American was not involved in it.

The only reason that this logic does not apply to Jews is that their is no central hierarchy to Judaism, however it is still possible to believe that there is a shadow organization that is running the world and happens to be Jewish.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#22

Post by gizmo686 » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 1:23 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #10

imh wrote: post #6

> In his introduction to the “Second Book,” which was finally published officially in 2003, Weinberg wrote, “Germany and the rest of the world have not yet come close to coming to terms with Hitler as a person, as leader of a great nation, and as a symbol.” After each of the recent mass shootings, I've been wondering more and more about whether we aren't doing anything about it because it's so easy to just label the…

I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Hitler thought he was good. Those who followed him thought he was good. In the narrative and perceptive reality of nazi Germany he was good. My grandmother waxes lyrical about the…

There may not be good and evil, but there is right and wrong (factually). Indeed, if I were to grant Hitler that everything he proposed as fact was true, then I would be complaining that he failed to solve the Jewish problem.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#23

Post by kafkaesq » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 1:50 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #2

I read Mein Kampf a few times as a kid. It's worthwhile - I ended up seeing hitler as a tragic, broken figure, tormented by his demons, skewed by his misplaced rage at the Weimar Republic, which lead to a path of destruction for millions. Until you understand that anyone can be Hitler, you don't understand.

Until you understand that anyone can be Hitler, you don't understand.

Have you ever listened to his speeches, man? As in like, really listened?

Go ahead, try it sometime. Claw your soul and your beating heart out through your very eardrums, he will.

His talents in that realm were clearly from another plane. Lots of people (perhaps millions) have wanted to "be" the next Hitler. But in terms of sheer charisma and persuasiveness, they just didn't have the juice.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#24

Post by jqm » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 1:51 AM UTC

JetSpiegel wrote: post #4

afarrell wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started reading Mein Kampf in 8th grade, but I just found the speaker so whiney and irritating that I lost patience before WWI. I should perhaps go back to it sometime.

Can't be worse that The Catcher in Rye... Can it?

I think that's a fair question.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#25

Post by thaw13579 » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 1:56 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #15

bsder wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Actually, "do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality. It doesn't encompass things like when to punish bad actors, but it cov…

It's a reasonable seeming law, yes, just as the categorical imperative is - but what if your culture says that the more skulls you collect, the better a person you are? It's easy to define a law in isolation from social pressures which defy that law. Take the inquisition - by burning hereticks you saved their souls, and this was therefore good - so do as you would be done by applies, even if it comprises an auto da f…

> It's a reasonable seeming law, yes, just as the categorical imperative is - but what if your culture says that the more skulls you collect, the better a person you are? It's easy to define a law in isolation from social pressures which defy that law. Take the inquisition - by burning hereticks you saved their souls, and this was therefore good - so do as you would be done by applies, even if it comprises an auto da fé.

I think the point is this--if the skull collector became the source of a skull, or the burner became a heretic, they would probably stop thinking those were "good" practices (due to the suffering and death and such), so those acts wouldn't satisfy the "do as you would be done by" rule. Even when those deemed heretics were part of the culture at the time, it's doubtful they thought "oh well, I guess this is the right thing to do".

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#26

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 1:59 AM UTC

jimrandomh wrote: post #17

Houshalter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazis weren't evil, but they were wrong. The whole "Jewish conspiracy" thing was bullshit. As was many of their beliefs. You could have Nazi values, and still disagree with the Nazis on a completely factual basis.

On the contrary, they absolutely were evil. It just turns out that evil doesn't look quite like we would have thought--hence the importance of studying history from primary sources, to know what evil actually looks like, to be able to recognize and oppose it today.

I think a great documentary that explores this territory (but within the context of Indonesia) is The Act of Killing [1]. It can be hard to watch because it lays bare the banality of "evil". No cackling madmen or volcano fortresses, just ordinary-seeming people who committed mass murder while still believing themselves to be just.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#27

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 2:08 AM UTC

throwaway344 wrote: post #13

bsder wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Actually, "do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a pretty damn near universal law of morality. It doesn't encompass things like when to punish bad actors, but it cov…

If Hitler and his followers had been more apathetic, they wouldn't have displayed the zeal that they did in trying to change the world according to their ideals. The problem with it is that you don't know whether you are the brave person speaking out against injustice or the lunatic that stands against obvious progress.

[deleted]

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#28

Post by erikpukinskis » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 2:13 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #18

Houshalter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazis weren't evil, but they were wrong. The whole "Jewish conspiracy" thing was bullshit. As was many of their beliefs. You could have Nazi values, and still disagree with the Nazis on a completely factual basis.

Yes it was - but it didn't start with them. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , which was published in 1903 in Russia, kicked off that particular idea - and the nazis just ran with what popular thought already held. Also, true - going back to my grandmother, she's a raving anti-Semite, but has a Jewish daughter in law - and (now deceased) husband. The cognitive dissonance required is incredible, but common. She'll…

The same thing is rampant today. Rather educated, liberal people will claim that black people are, on average, more violent and less valuable as employees... but of course specific black people are fine. It's easy to do, you just have to rely on a little bad science and a lifetime of propaganda and that whole worldview seems sensible.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#29

Post by codesushi42 » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 2:44 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #10

imh wrote: post #6

> In his introduction to the “Second Book,” which was finally published officially in 2003, Weinberg wrote, “Germany and the rest of the world have not yet come close to coming to terms with Hitler as a person, as leader of a great nation, and as a symbol.” After each of the recent mass shootings, I've been wondering more and more about whether we aren't doing anything about it because it's so easy to just label the…

I'll probably maintain for all my days that there is no good or evil, just acts. Yes, cry "moral relativism!", but morals are social constructs, whether you like it or not - there is no universal law of morality, even if your name is Kant. Hitler thought he was good. Those who followed him thought he was good. In the narrative and perceptive reality of nazi Germany he was good. My grandmother waxes lyrical about the…

Nicely flawed and lazy logic here. You don't have to take your reasoning much further to claim that all of human perception is relative, unprovable, and therefore basically nonexistent.

You sound like a nihilist. As another poster pointed out, "do to unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a good baseline for determining whether an action is good or evil.

I'm an atheist and I even realize this.

Re: A Historian Who Fled the Nazis and Still Wants Us to Read Hitler

#30

Post by douche » Thu, Jan 07, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

imh wrote: post #6

> In his introduction to the “Second Book,” which was finally published officially in 2003, Weinberg wrote, “Germany and the rest of the world have not yet come close to coming to terms with Hitler as a person, as leader of a great nation, and as a symbol.” After each of the recent mass shootings, I've been wondering more and more about whether we aren't doing anything about it because it's so easy to just label the…

Hitler - The Holocaust = Napoleon

There are a scary number of parallels. How differently would we view the Third Reich minus the atrocities of the Einsatzgruppen, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and their ilk?