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Working fewer hours would make us more productive

theguardian.com

221–230 of 253 posts

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

Are you really John Carmack? (As of writing, account created 325 days ago, 1 comment and 2 karma) It shouldn't really matter because it's 'appeal to authority', but thoughts on worklife/productivity by the Elon Musk's or John Carmack's of the world really do have more impact

Appealing to authority is not always fallacious.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have incredible propensity to acclimatize to the environment. That's the only reasoning I could arrive at when I was poor and saw people around willing to do the most mundane back breaking work than to seek other forms of employment. The lever that is used in society today is desperation as opposed to higher pay per hr in the "Looking Backward" case. The sanitation worker doesn't enjoy their work and no amount…

I think it is very important not to forget another factor - the Protestant Work Ethic. This had a gigantic influence on US culture and we still live with it today. It is the reason people reflexively object to McDonald's workers fighting for higher pay, and don't care that those workers are earning far more for their employer than they are being paid. The Protestant Work Ethic is the belief that the work itself, spec…

Thank you for this excellent response.

The first part made me think that in the past when church was so dominant and had to get people to work for them, this philosophy would have done the trick.

   'Hard work is its own reward'
This unfortunately brought the "Work will set you free" quote to mind but I'm not in a position to further comment on it.

I think people in power (Churches, Politicians, CEOs) would always try to portray work in this light as it is inherently valuable for them. I think this might be the case too with the older folks calling Millennial entitled brats.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#223
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe convincing people to do "bad jobs" by means of desperation is named Wage Slavery. Besides being immoral and degrading, its pretty inefficient. On the other hand, some jobs that need to be done plain out unpleasant. How do you convince someone to do it? In the Looking Backwards scenario the incentive to do one of the "bad jobs" isn't being paid more per hour, everyone is paid the same, its working less hours…

Less hours at the same pay is more money per hour. But there is a subtle difference - cleaning toilets for 2 hours is much different mentally than cleaning toilets for 8 hours. And you can then go look after dogs at the shelter for 4 more hours and get two paychecks.

Yes, its more money per hour of work but its not more money per week in this system.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#224
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe convincing people to do "bad jobs" by means of desperation is named Wage Slavery. Besides being immoral and degrading, its pretty inefficient. On the other hand, some jobs that need to be done plain out unpleasant. How do you convince someone to do it? In the Looking Backwards scenario the incentive to do one of the "bad jobs" isn't being paid more per hour, everyone is paid the same, its working less hours…

Everyone needs to pitch in, you need to serve humanity so that it provides you with the things you need. If the only thing you can do to do your part is sanitation work, then sanitation work it shall be. That is, until you find new ways to serve others. Slavery is something altogether different, and you really have to be in a position of privilege to conflate the two. The history of slavery is an incredibly dark one.…

Yes agreed, in any social system everyone needs to work (if able) in order for society to thrive.

Wage slavery is a very specific term that I didn't just make up and I believe it accurately describes what you were talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have incredible propensity to acclimatize to the environment. That's the only reasoning I could arrive at when I was poor and saw people around willing to do the most mundane back breaking work than to seek other forms of employment. The lever that is used in society today is desperation as opposed to higher pay per hr in the "Looking Backward" case. The sanitation worker doesn't enjoy their work and no amount…

I think it is very important not to forget another factor - the Protestant Work Ethic. This had a gigantic influence on US culture and we still live with it today. It is the reason people reflexively object to McDonald's workers fighting for higher pay, and don't care that those workers are earning far more for their employer than they are being paid. The Protestant Work Ethic is the belief that the work itself, spec…

I 100% agree with your assessment.

I of course 100% disagree with the notions however :)

You may find the 1936 Spanish Revolution fascinating, I recommend the whole video but here is a good synopsis

https://youtu.be/jPl_Y3Qdb7Y?t=54m50s

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. That proves his point. Every state at a secondary enforcement seat belt law before 1998. Every state aside from Maine and South Dakota (both of which had relatively high seat belt usage before the law) saw an increase in seat belt usage post-law. I think you might be confused by the 1998 number. That year came after the after law percentage. Meaning that enforcement immediately after the law also worked…

No, the law only brought the 17% of change. The law change is binary and sudden, but the change in culture brought all the rest, gradually, year after year, before law and after.

You are making assumptions based on zero evidence. The change is binary, enforcement is over time. You are assuming the change from 48% to 65% (which is also a 17% increase) can be explained sans law, but there's zero evidence that's the case.

Your assumptions are without standing.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#227
post #143

I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

Most people don't work jobs they care about. In an ideal world how people choose to spend their time would be entirely separate from notions of productivity or wages. But the fact is that we operate under a terrible economic system and people are overworked by largely meaningless jobs. In the context of society as it stands today, not only are people overworked, but most people could work less without their respective employers losing money. Because modern businesses operate solely off the principal of maximizing profit, I think it's poignant to point out that it's in their benefit to reduce the work week for their employees.

You can't apply this notion to people who spend their time in meaningful ways. You couldn't say that Picasso would be just as effective with a shorter work week. If people lived reasonable lives and did genuine work, the whole idea of comparing length of work weeks with effectiveness of work would be meaningless. You point out that when people are worn out with a certain activity, they could benefit by just moving on to another. That's true. Reasonably speaking, people shouldn't do anything for even a minute longer than they feel like. But the corporate world does not offer that kind of flexibility. The corporate world is rigid, and people are forced to operate in unnatural ways. Repetition and narrow focus are the bread and butter of this system, meaning you perform a single task over and over for the duration of your work day and that's it. This is the context with which you must examine the idea that "shorter work weeks are just as effective" because this is how most jobs work. I think the reason for pointing out that "shorter work weeks are just as effective" is really to use the ruthless, disconnected, corporate logic of the modern business world against itself.

Now, let me just dispel a myth you stated. You believe that "Given two equally talented people, the one that pursues a goal obsessively, for well over 40 hours a week, is going to achieve more." This again is modern corporate mentality. Work harder, put in more effort, and you will achieve more. The real world does not operate on these principals. Only menial tasks can be translated into the notion of more effort = higher yields. Lets take the example of Picasso again. Do you think the more time he spent painting in a given week the better his paintings were? Or take Newton. Do you think if he sat down and forced himself to ponder the physical laws of the universe for ten more hours each week he would have made more discoveries? This is a simplistic and completely insubstantial view on the world.

If you examine the lives of truly successful people (by which I mean people like Newton or Picasso or Tchaikovsky, not financially successful like Mark Cuban or Bill Gates) then you realize the only "rule" you can extrapolate from their lives is that people operate best when they do so on their own terms. Not when they work for longer hours or with more perceived "effort", but when they work exactly as they please.

But anyway, that's getting into another topic. I just wanted to point out that the idea that shorter work weeks are just as effective is completely valid when applied to the current and deeply flawed structure of modern work environments. It's not something which can be applied to ideal scenarios which offer flexibility, and frankly that's irrelevant because most people aren't fortunate enough to have that. If we do get to the point where people can work under truly ideal circumstances, the entire notion of productivity or effectiveness will be meaningless. These are concepts which only hinder good work.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#228
post #197

I recently read an interesting book called Looking Backward, by Edward Bellamy. It was written in 1887 but could have been written yesterday. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Backward It was basically about a guy who accidentally travels forward in time (sort of like idiocracy) except he finds himself in an American Socialist Utopia. It was a really good book in general but there was one idea in particular that…

In theory this is possible now, right? Why don't employers compete in this way? Is there some insurance/tax/other reason that employers so strongly prefer full-time employees?

Well it would require a pretty massive shift in economic systems. It's against the interests of employers in the current system as I understand it.

You should read the book, it has a lot more context and gives a much fuller explanation than I can right now :)

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No prohibition certainly, but you would receive the same pay. In the book the author supposed that this would lead more people to spend their time participating in artistic activities.

Would you still receive the same pay if you work 0 jobs?

Generally no, you gotta do some job.

The caveats being people who are sick or handicapped and people who are retired. I believe the author also said retirement age was something like 45.

Also, he went to some lengths to explain the importance of reinforcement through cultural values.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#230

I changed my working arrangement to 80% recently, so now I work four 8-hour day weeks. I wholeheartedly recommend it if you can make it work. I have wednesday off, so the week is divided into two-day stretches. Not sure if I'm any more productive (maybe), but I'm a lot happier. I suspect some coworkers are going to follow my lead, now that the precedent has been set.

Just curious: why did you decide to take Wednesday's off instead of Monday or Friday, thus getting three day weekends? Personally, for almost all of my professional life I didn't work Monday's (32 hour work week). That worked out really well for me.

I figured it'd be nice to only ever have two-day work stretches. I didn't put much thought into it, just decided to try it and I've been happy with it so far. I feel a lot more energetic on thursdays and fridays now.
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