Live data from Hacker News

Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

technologyreview.com

11–20 of 48 posts

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#11
post #2

"I'm sorry we're falling off a mountain right now, but it was us or that family."

If you are in a situation where there is a risk of falling off a mountain and you are driving fast enough that you can't safely stop if you see people in front of you, you are doing something wrong. A self-driving car should definitely not even get into situations where it's forced to make decisions like that.

I know it is rare, but this situation can arise through no error of the car's controls. Consider the failure of the car's master cylinder. If your Brakes don't work, then this might be the exact choice you make.

I don't want to sound overly cynical, but I somehow doubt that self-driving cars are going to suddenly make cars more reliable. Mechanical failure are not a common cause of crashes - http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pubs/812115.pdf - according to the NHTSA there, they account for 2% of crashes between 2005-2007. Still, self driving cars will need to be able to handle situations where there are mechanical failures.

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#12
post #8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that self-driving cars should act in the self interest of the owners. To what extent? At some point, we're going to have to decide as a society what call a self-driving car has to make in situations like "I can run down this family in the cross-walk or get rear-ended by that oncoming vehicle".

I'd rather see a focus on smarter and faster braking then on solving contrived moral dilemmas.

This please.

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#13
Self-driving cars are going to make people even lazier then they already are. And as for those cars that automatically park themselves - whats going to happen when 5 cars see only one spot, and they all try and go for that same spot?

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in a situation where there is a risk of falling off a mountain and you are driving fast enough that you can't safely stop if you see people in front of you, you are doing something wrong. A self-driving car should definitely not even get into situations where it's forced to make decisions like that.

I know it is rare, but this situation can arise through no error of the car's controls. Consider the failure of the car's master cylinder. If your Brakes don't work, then this might be the exact choice you make. I don't want to sound overly cynical, but I somehow doubt that self-driving cars are going to suddenly make cars more reliable. Mechanical failure are not a common cause of crashes - http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.…

    try:
        brakes()
    except BrakeFailure:
        emergency_brakes()

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in a situation where there is a risk of falling off a mountain and you are driving fast enough that you can't safely stop if you see people in front of you, you are doing something wrong. A self-driving car should definitely not even get into situations where it's forced to make decisions like that.

I know it is rare, but this situation can arise through no error of the car's controls. Consider the failure of the car's master cylinder. If your Brakes don't work, then this might be the exact choice you make. I don't want to sound overly cynical, but I somehow doubt that self-driving cars are going to suddenly make cars more reliable. Mechanical failure are not a common cause of crashes - http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.…

Cars in general handle this now. Many cars have a "limp home" mode where they won't exceed 5 mph or some other low speed. [1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_throttle_control

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#17

Self-driving cars are going to make people even lazier then they already are. And as for those cars that automatically park themselves - whats going to happen when 5 cars see only one spot, and they all try and go for that same spot?

> whats going to happen when 5 cars see only one spot, and they all try and go for that same spot?

What happens when 5 human drivers see only one spot, and they all try and go for that same spot?

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it is rare, but this situation can arise through no error of the car's controls. Consider the failure of the car's master cylinder. If your Brakes don't work, then this might be the exact choice you make. I don't want to sound overly cynical, but I somehow doubt that self-driving cars are going to suddenly make cars more reliable. Mechanical failure are not a common cause of crashes - http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.…

try: brakes() except BrakeFailure: emergency_brakes()

Yes, but have you ever stopped with your eBrake? first, it doesn't usually effect all 4 wheels, and second, it isn't antilock. If, traveling 60mph your master cylinder or brake lines fail, the E Brake might not do the job. I know the E Brake in my Toyota Tundra wouldn't stop me if I were going 60mph.

Again, my point was not to say that this was likely to happen, but merely that we should ensure that there is framework for dealing with these kind of scenarios where a car needs to choose. According to the document I shared earlier, 95% of accidents are driver error somehow. Self-driving cars are sure to improve those statistics, but for public acceptance we need to answer the other 5% of accidents too.

EDIT: as Saberworks below points out, there is no Emergency Brake in the Tundra, or in fact almost any modern car. I was loosely equating the parking brake with an emergency brake because in many cars there is no "emergency brake", so the parking brake is your only other choice.

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#19
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in a situation where there is a risk of falling off a mountain and you are driving fast enough that you can't safely stop if you see people in front of you, you are doing something wrong. A self-driving car should definitely not even get into situations where it's forced to make decisions like that.

I know it is rare, but this situation can arise through no error of the car's controls. Consider the failure of the car's master cylinder. If your Brakes don't work, then this might be the exact choice you make. I don't want to sound overly cynical, but I somehow doubt that self-driving cars are going to suddenly make cars more reliable. Mechanical failure are not a common cause of crashes - http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.…

Consider the failure of the car's master cylinder.

I realize it's just one example to make a point, but automotive master cylinders don't completely fail all at once since about fifty years ago. What causes a master cylinder to fail is a failure of the seals. But because modern master cylinders have "dual channels" (for lack of a better description), half of it might fail, but it's so unlikely for both sides to fail at the same time I never even heard of it in my years as a professional mechanic, let alone actually seen such a failure. Though a self-driving car would still need to account for the fact that only half the wheels have functioning brakes.

Any other failures I can think of on modern cars are going to be so much of a failure that merely getting the car to the side of the road might be a challenge, let alone worrying about the bus full of nuns and orphans in front of you. Examples would be catastrophic tire or suspension failure (ball joint breaks loose, for example, making the car very difficult to steer).

On the flip side, it could be argued that late-model cars have worse failure modes. By that I use our Nissan Leaf as an example. There is no direct mechanical linkage on any part of the car that makes it stop, go, or steer. Parking brake is electrically actuated. Brakes are run on a wire. "Gas" pedal is wire. I'm pretty sure the steering is drive-by-wire, but I'd have to go back and look it up to make the claim with confidence. I'm sure there are redundancies, but I'm picturing an ECU letting its smoke out and then you might as well just let go of the wheel and pray to your preferred deity.

Anyway, this has been Captain Pedantic checking in, thanks for reading. I now return you to the point you actually trying to make.

Re: Toyota Wants Cars to React to the Unexpected, and Then Explain Themselves

#20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

try: brakes() except BrakeFailure: emergency_brakes()

Yes, but have you ever stopped with your eBrake? first, it doesn't usually effect all 4 wheels, and second, it isn't antilock. If, traveling 60mph your master cylinder or brake lines fail, the E Brake might not do the job. I know the E Brake in my Toyota Tundra wouldn't stop me if I were going 60mph. Again, my point was not to say that this was likely to happen, but merely that we should ensure that there is framewor…

The first part sounds like a design flaw of your Toyota Tundra rather then a self driving car issue.

Secondly, is it considered a mechanical failure when the master cylinder fails and the driver is too slow to find the emergency brake actuator in time? Self driving cars do not suffer from that problem.

Post reply on HN