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Kodak resurrects Super 8

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181–190 of 202 posts

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's the imperfections that we are attracted to. I started with digital audio a long time ago, but have been buying almost solely analog equipment (synths, effects, reel2reel) for the past 5 years. Often it just sounds more alive. I still use digital too, a lot, but it's nice to have another type of texture in the tool box. Not sure I'd film on Super 8 though, it ends up being pretty costly and hassly, and…

I think analog synths are in a different category because they generate sound vs capturing it. When it comes to instruments like that you can't make an argument that digital does it better because that is subjective. Similarly I don't think a synth with guitar sampled mod can replace the guitar because it would be impossible (or very hard) to capture all quirks/permutations of strings together. You could make a case…

As far as art, it's all subjective, there is no "better" :) Accurate - now that's a different story.

And I agree with you, analog nonlinearities are more apparent when you generate the sound.

Having said that, as a practical example, there is a big difference in the sound of drums (loud, fast transients) recorded to tape vs digitally. I really like the sound of tape for certain things. For some things, it doesn't make that much of a difference. The amount of mojo depends on your tape recorder, tape formulation and amount of overdrive.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#182
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kodak certainly did a lot of things wrong--especially with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Part of their problem with digital was that they were arguably ahead of curve (and not quite on the right curve) with things like PhotoCD and providing equipment to photo shops to print customer photos. However, the bottom line is that it would probably have been very difficult for even the most brilliant management to replace…

I worked at Kodak as a summer intern in '85. Was the era of the disk camera. Was also my first programming job. Lotus 1-2-3. Most people today can't comprehend the scale of American manufacturing as it still was at that time. The Elmgrove plant where I worked (one of a dozen facilities in the Rochester area) has over 14 thousand employees. Our start and end times were staggered in 7 minute increments to manage traffi…

What people don't get a lot of the time when they're opining about what a business should do or should have done because the market is collapsing/collapsed for a particular product category is that you have to run the numbers. Maybe the business executes brilliantly on creating a new $1B business (which is hard). But if that replaces a $10B business, things are still going to get ugly. I don't have the exact numbers at my fingertips but, as I recall, film revenue fell something like 90% in under 10 years.

(That said, Fujifilm provides an existence proof that Kodak could have, however painfully, probably navigated this with better management making better choices.)

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#183
I feel like we're out of ideas, so we revert to nostalgia. I just saw that Technics just re-reintrouduced the SL-1200 and now Kodak is reintroducing the Super 8. All so that we can feel the analog warmth. I think this is just the effect of software taking over the world. We cant have these tangible things anymore that have their own character, quirks, and defects(that when new infuriate users only to be remembered fondly 20 years later) We recently bought my 9 year old an instant camera. Each pack only has 10 pictures. She blew through that in about 30 minutes because she was so used to the "infinite" digital pictures she could take. To add insult to injury, she kept taking the film pack out and exposing the pictures, and couldn't figure out why they were blank.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#184
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kodak certainly did a lot of things wrong--especially with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Part of their problem with digital was that they were arguably ahead of curve (and not quite on the right curve) with things like PhotoCD and providing equipment to photo shops to print customer photos. However, the bottom line is that it would probably have been very difficult for even the most brilliant management to replace…

> Fujifilm did end up doing OK by, among other things, applying their film making expertise to other industries like medical. Another thing they did was carve out a very nice niche for themselves with their X-mount cameras. They've done quite well in part because the in-camera processing engine does a good job of emulating a lot of the old Fuji film stocks (as well as making very nice cameras that offer something dif…

I have an XE-1. Now there's retro i can buy into. Especially with the pancake lens, it really feels like an old fashioned rangefinder in a lot of ways.

I don't know how much money they make off that line but they've done a nice job of it to the point where I don't use my DSLR very much unless I'm shooting action or need either ultrawide or telephoto lenses.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#185
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first it might seem like a fad, but "character" is essential when making art. You are trying to reach another human being, not simply deliver the best image possible, so her past experiences, memories, the fact that she grew up watching grainy movies at the local theater, will all interact and elicit a certain emotional or instinctual response. It's not that analog is better, is that your audience reacts uniquely…

Heh, I'd say tube amps are a bit more out there than everything else you listed (unless you mean tube headphone amps or something). It's INCREDIBLY difficult to accurately emulate tubes on normal computers in real-time due to their non-linear behavior. And there is at least some kind of science behind tubes "sounding better" since second-order harmonics are suppose to be more enjoyable for a listener, and are generat…

Sure, on a normal computer that may be the case. But, products like the Kemper Profiling Amp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0SmSl1aS1w) are on the same price range as high-end amps and have been able able to model _any_ amp with an incredible precision for years already. Still, it's easier to find a wide selection of analog amps in recording studios than one of those. That said, I think it has a lot to do with the guitar player "fetish" of recording on a boutique valve head with a pair of 4x12 cabinets.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#186
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some times it is. Go look at great pixel art from the 80's and 90's era on an analog CRT. Overall, modern displays do more and are better in every way. But, I find watching SD media is best on analog SD media. Or I see a movie in ultra high resolution. Looks like a set. I can see it. But my copy of "How The West Was Won" reissued on Blu Ray is one of the very best I've seen. This stuff has subtleties that people appr…

> Go look at great pixel art from the 80's and 90's era on an analog CRT. > Overall, modern displays do more and are better in every way. But, I find watching SD media is best on analog SD media. Well, this is because the pixel art was specifically designed (sometimes intentionally--sometimes just because that's what the artist used to make it) to the limitations of the CRT's is was going to be used on. Consequently,…

Indeed, though I do recommend watching that old western on BluRay. Someone who knows how to nail it with film actually does capture way more than they even expected back then.

There is a fine art there to be appreciated. This is why Spielberg still shoots film. He has a mastery that continues to have value. He may find all of that blunted in the digital realm. Can't blame him.

I think we will eventually find the art in high resolution digital comes down to things other than perfection. Sometimes too much of a good thing is too much.

On another thread, I mentioned Pink Floyd, "The Wall" and how it has been reissued on CD and a remastered gold version that is insane good.

Actually, it is too good. The average person may well appreciate the production values from the earlier work more, despite its considerable distance from perfection.

The trouble on all these discussions centers in on what people like as opposed to perfection. Those two are not always the same, and "better" has that subjective component to it always.

Many digital movie productions I see have subtle aspects to them one can find distracting or that break the immersion a movie is supposed to deliver. Not breaking that is Cinematography. I remain unconvinced everyone really understands that.

That's where the art is.

This is not to say advances in tech are bad or to be discouraged. Neither is true.

However, value perception of said tech may vary considerably from expectations.

On your last point, we actually lose the pixel art, and often the discussion goes to other things. Fine, but it's not always bad to see the pixels.

With gaming, extreme realism, or just extreme quality, can break some of the escape and fantasy, abstraction inherent in the entertainment form. There is definitely room for both and an active retro culture and indie scene taking liberally from retro in order to see that art continue.

The are also some economies with analog means. I'm on a chip project right now that can offer up great analog display. (Truth is, it will do a 4k on analog, no sweat, if one wants to do that)

Some of that is lost on digital devices. The thing is, generating the analog is at least an order more lean, while being able to offer comparable quality. Barrier to entry is low. That is also high value.

Raising that bar is good in many cases, but not all. So I find myself dealing with many subtle timing matters, artifacts of A to D conversion all a non issue on actual analog displays. I will end up with a lean device that can do HDTV signals nicely, while still maxing out an old TV, which does way more than most expect, and do so sans an awful lot of hassles.

As a "do it myself" kind of person, I do not always see the benefit of complex, resource intensive signals, compression, etc... as a good, or the better thing. And there are IP concerns too, all near completely absent from analog means and methods.

So then, "better" takes on some new depth when on is making or building from first principles. In the end, the system will deliver a great display for a fraction of the effort required to employ a fully digital path.

That's tech I know down to the core, can trust and control in any way desired. Does exactly what I want. High value as far as I am concerned. Timeless too. Works on anything ever made.

I just got a media player that refuses to interface with my other goodies. HDCP in play. It's hooked up via analog component, and delivers the great experience it is supposed to. Funny how that mess can all work.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#187
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some times it is. Go look at great pixel art from the 80's and 90's era on an analog CRT. Overall, modern displays do more and are better in every way. But, I find watching SD media is best on analog SD media. Or I see a movie in ultra high resolution. Looks like a set. I can see it. But my copy of "How The West Was Won" reissued on Blu Ray is one of the very best I've seen. This stuff has subtleties that people appr…

> Go look at great pixel art from the 80's and 90's era on an analog CRT. > Overall, modern displays do more and are better in every way. But, I find watching SD media is best on analog SD media. Well, this is because the pixel art was specifically designed (sometimes intentionally--sometimes just because that's what the artist used to make it) to the limitations of the CRT's is was going to be used on. Consequently,…

TL;DR version = new tech is superior, not always better in the artistic sense and not always worth it in the trust and make, do, build sense.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#188

I watched the analog-to-digital-to-analog trend happen in professional audio (I was going to school for audio as ProTools was beginning to be a thing, we worked on analog tape machines...but the year after I finished my degree, they brought in digital ADAT machines for the small labs, and eventually went digital in the 24 track room, as well). It's amusing how superstitious people can be, especially in industries tha…

Is it really an issue of image quality? Because while the qualities are different, analog media has its own character. You have to do quite a bit of image manipulation in digital to get that "super 8" look, and it isn't always that convincing. Same with black/white photography vs. digital -- the way a digital chip reacts to light is very different than the way chemicals in film react, and some film stocks have a rang…

Even photography experts can't tell the difference between a digital photo that has simulated grain added to it, and tone manipulation done in post, versus a picture shot on film and scanned to digital.

I suspect its the same thing in cinematography.

Double blind tests do real havoc to all kinds of fetishism from wine-tasting to high end audio.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#189
This is good for digital in ways I think people won't notice quite yet.

As an amateur photographer I tend to see film users a lot. I shoot digital but I'd like to shoot film too. The reality is that there are some artifacts that film gives you that you can't replace in digital yet. In art, if the effect or feeling that you want is given on a certain tool then that is the tool for the job. In photography, if this is film, then film is the right tool for the job. There's also the large factor of workflows. People get used to a workflow that influences their style and it's important to them to maintain that workflow. What is measurably better in technical terms is not important.

What I see happening is that market trends like this will push digital forces to perfectly re-creating classic films. The difficulty with re-creating film with filters or presets is it's notoriously hard to do and usually not perfect. Fujifilm is a perfect example of this with their film simulation modes on their X-Mount camera lineup. I suspect that the film trend is going to push photography giants into creating more accurate emulation of film baked into their workflows and devices rather than the current trend of generic hipster Instagram filters or playing in Lightroom for a few hours (and still not getting the effect you want).

Whether you're a professional or a 16y/o girl with a K1000 and mix-matched 80's leg warmers film still does have a place amongst people and this will in turn affect the development of digital processing.

Re: Kodak resurrects Super 8

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really an issue of image quality? Because while the qualities are different, analog media has its own character. You have to do quite a bit of image manipulation in digital to get that "super 8" look, and it isn't always that convincing. Same with black/white photography vs. digital -- the way a digital chip reacts to light is very different than the way chemicals in film react, and some film stocks have a rang…

Even photography experts can't tell the difference between a digital photo that has simulated grain added to it, and tone manipulation done in post, versus a picture shot on film and scanned to digital. I suspect its the same thing in cinematography. Double blind tests do real havoc to all kinds of fetishism from wine-tasting to high end audio.

You are confusing the experience of the audience with the creative process of the artist.
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