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Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

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Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#11

> The rituals, mainly the standups and grooming sessions, were fantastic. Standups are a great way to keep everyone aligned on the work. Can anyone elaborate why they find standups useful? The planning board should already communicate what's being done, what's been done and why people are blocked. I only find them helpful if some people in the team generally don't communicate well what they're up to (e.g. during dail…

> I find most people zone out during the standup

Out of curiosity, how long do your standups last? How big is the team?

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#12

> The rituals, mainly the standups and grooming sessions, were fantastic. Standups are a great way to keep everyone aligned on the work. Can anyone elaborate why they find standups useful? The planning board should already communicate what's being done, what's been done and why people are blocked. I only find them helpful if some people in the team generally don't communicate well what they're up to (e.g. during dail…

You need to tighten up your standups. Each person should be saying what they did yesterday, what they're going to do today, and identify any dependencies or blockers.

It's important for everyone on the team to know what others are doing in order to share knowledge. If people are zoning out, you're not getting that benefit.

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#13
post #2

I love this. We briefly flirted with scrum but now just have a much more Kanban-like system now, too. The only issue I foresee long term is that the sprint mentality of Scrum might recharge people and get them to, well, sprint, at product goals. Kanban, because it is never ending, might start to feel like a slog. There is never a way to have that feeling of "wow, we crushed it and cleared out our list. We are awesome…

I see it the other way round. We're doing Scrum (ish, I guess) right now, and the see-saw between either ending a sprint with a couple of late-night panic sessions to get everything out of the door, or ending it with most of the team kicking their heels with one pair still going up to the deadline is what feels like the slog. I see Kanban as much smoother: I don't see artificial, self-imposed crunch mode every fortni…

Aligns with my experience. We're always continuously delivering, with madeup goals stuck in to align with arbitrary sprints. The real activity takes as long as it takes. Sprints are a stilted reporting structure, adding drama but little real value.

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#14
> Perhaps Kanban is better suited towards long-lived product development than Scrum.

This is the key take-away. And in my experience this is absolutely true.

On the other hand, working now as a consultant where I am frequently on shorter-term projects with a definitive "end" for the engagement, the time-boxed sprint approach (or "Scrum") actually seems to work well.

Scrum might work for individual "projects". It does not scale or coalesce well with long-term development and maintenance.

> Perhaps there is indeed a natural progression of engineering teams adopting Scrum, then moving to Kanban.

This also mirrors my experience.

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#15
I really like KanBan and think it's a better fit for a lot of teams than SCRUM is. SCRUM works great for teams which have a stable backlog of work and an incidental problem that might pop up. If you can't keep a backlog stable for three weeks, you shouldn't do scrum. KanBan allows you to pick and choose practices from scrum that do add value, and ignore the ones you are just doing to follow the book.

I worked in a team for 2 years that tried to do scrum because it's new thing that everyone should be doing and I feel it added nothing of value.

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#16
As someone in similar circumstances a couple of things jump out which trouble me:

Project Managers - That this role is mentioned, but not that of Scrum Master, is odd but unsurprising. PMs aren't mentioned in Scrum at all and often the way they want to do things clashes with the Scrum way of doing things. In the given example of the PM moaning about estimation Scrum at least forces that realisation quickly, something which Kanban lacks. There may well have been a Scrum Master, one of the things I've experienced them doing is guiding my team down from 1 month sprints through 2 week ones down to a single week. "It's really hard to plan for 2 weeks work" is a classic moment for the Scrum Master to say "what about..."

"We tossed out the retrospectives" - Despite acknowledging them as a good thing? For me retrospectives are the most powerful part of Scrum. Stopping retrospectives might save you a few hours and some awkward conversations but is likely to hamper your continued development. Scrum is really good about moving a team to the "conscious incompetent" phase - i.e. you are forced to be aware you are bad at something and really need to work on it. Retrospectives are the way to improve and grow.

"We kept our deadlines" - That you had deadlines (again the sign of a PM somewhere), and view them as important enough to mention again is interesting. It hints at quality not being the most import factor, which is one of the keys to doing Scrum well.

For me moving to Kanban was a fix for a Scrum team that wasn't working well. I've worked on a good Scrum team, that took a while to get going, but got there by being able to be open and honest about poor morale and then dealing with it. The new team didn't get there, we moved to Kanban and while everyone is happier our productivity is much, much lower. I do feel there is a place for switching to Kanban - when the scope of the project has moved into "we know how to do this" space, often close to a major release (if you do infrequent releases) where 3rd party involvement plays havoc with planning. If you're dealing with points high on the "the business don't know what they want" or "we don't know how to do this" chart then, for me, Scrum is still king. If you're high on both axes then you might want to switch projects / companies...

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#17

> The rituals, mainly the standups and grooming sessions, were fantastic. Standups are a great way to keep everyone aligned on the work. Can anyone elaborate why they find standups useful? The planning board should already communicate what's being done, what's been done and why people are blocked. I only find them helpful if some people in the team generally don't communicate well what they're up to (e.g. during dail…

You need to tighten up your standups. Each person should be saying what they did yesterday, what they're going to do today, and identify any dependencies or blockers. It's important for everyone on the team to know what others are doing in order to share knowledge. If people are zoning out, you're not getting that benefit.

Yes but either you don't know what they're talking about (different part of the project), or already know what they're talking about (because you are a tight team). So, zone out. Who's the Punch and Judy show for?

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any text links? Thanks.

Simon Wardley blogs at http://blog.gardeviance.org/ One link is http://blog.gardeviance.org/2015/10/agile-vs-lean-vs-six-sig... (I'm sure his view and his value maps on strategy will be huge in 5 years, although he is relativly unknown today)

thats' a very interesting blog on strategy. Thanks for that - the only problem I see is that the "settlers" analogy has no real life mapping (unlike Pioneers scrum and TownPlanners six sigma).

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#19

I really like KanBan and think it's a better fit for a lot of teams than SCRUM is. SCRUM works great for teams which have a stable backlog of work and an incidental problem that might pop up. If you can't keep a backlog stable for three weeks, you shouldn't do scrum. KanBan allows you to pick and choose practices from scrum that do add value, and ignore the ones you are just doing to follow the book. I worked in a te…

If you can't keep a backlog stable for a few weeks then you aren't doing project work you're on support or firefighting. Scrum is all about IT project work, Kanban is a more general "efficiently get a pile of tasks done" process which can apply to small IT tasks or building a car.

Re: Ditching Scrum for Kanban - The best decision we’ve made as a team

#20
The team I was previously on tried to use Scrum and seemed to naturally fall into a similar model to Kanban; we got rid of what helped, and stopped doing what didn't. It was an amazing relief, especially since Scrum sprints and the numbers just weren't working.

Sadly, our Scrumlessness was found out and it was implemented again shortly before I left. Morale was dropping steadily on the team already (unrelated reasons), reimplementing the parts we already knew didn't work was a bummer, and the Scrum leader talked down to me when I tried to advocate for the team.

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