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Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

robindoherty.com

161–170 of 329 posts

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#161
post #21
post #5

Privacy is less important than the ability to trust your government won't do blatantly illegal things like put innocent people behind bars, steal their money or property, when they actually know that they are innocent. The biggest problem with America is that the government can not be trusted to follow the rules, their own rules. I don't live in the US, but the stuff the government whether local, state, or federal ge…

>...The biggest problem with America is that the government can not be trusted to follow the rules, their own rules. Isn't that the problem with all governments? Like they say "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty”

Governments are also made up of individuals.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#162
post #141
post #55

The issue with the 'nothing to hide' argument is that it puts the burden of proof and determination of whether something is 'hide-worthy' on the target of the inquiry. If you subscribe to the 'presumed innocent' premise of the law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence ) then the burden of proof is on the inquisitor. Either you believe in presumed innocence or you don't. Pick one.

My respons to the 'nothing to hide' argument is: "Why are you so scared of things that are hidden?" That puts them on the defensive. Since now they have to justify their fear for the unknown. And then we're onto the real topic: fear.

Someone who pushes the "nothing to hide" argument probably wouldn't understand the implication of your response. I suggest a different approach: say "Okay, in that case what prescriptions are you taking, how much money do you have in your bank account, and how often do you have sex? After all, you have nothing to hide right?"

That also puts them on the defensive side of the argument.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be unhappy if people said "I think that karmacondon has made mistakes in the past, so he shouldn't be trusted to do his job ever again." It's not about mistakes. Mistakes are - usually - a sign that someone needed to learn. They do not as a rule include wanton intent. And if a person were to make too many mistakes then they probably should not be trusted. > I understand what you're saying, and I think I get…

We both made the mistake of discussing the US government like it's a single entity. We're talking about hundreds or thousands of individuals spanning multiple generations. I'm not going to worry about government metadata collection because of something that happened during the Eisenhower administration. Each person and group of people should be evaluated based on their own behavior and merits, not the reputation of t…

> We both made the mistake of discussing the US government like it's a single entity.

I'm not making that mistake. I fully realize that the US government is comprised of many arms that even though some of those arms might have our collective best interests at heart this may not be the case for all of it.

> We're talking about hundreds or thousands of individuals spanning multiple generations.

So what. That only increases the chances of abuse, it does not diminish them at all. Just like in Nazi Germany there were plenty of people still fighting the good fight and at the same time employed by government. No government will ever be 100% rotten. But it does not have to be like that to do damage.

> I'm not going to worry about government metadata collection because of something that happened during the Eisenhower administration.

Because, let me guess that was too long ago and now it's different?

> Each person and group of people should be evaluated based on their own behavior and merits, not the reputation of the organization that they are affiliated with.

This is where you're flat-out wrong. Governments (and big corporations) have a life-span much longer than that of the individuals that are making it up, and as such we should look at them as entities rather than as collections of individuals.

If you'd be right then North Korea would not exist today as we know it (and neither would China, Iran and a bunch of other countries). The way these things work is that the general course will be slightly affected by the individuals but the momentum in the whole machinery is enormous. Think of it as a cable in which individual strands are replaced but the identity and purpose of the cable remains. Eventually you have a completely new cable and yet, nothing has changed. And in this case the entity has a huge influence on which parts of it will be replaced by who.

> It looks to me like the US agencies, and the Five Eyes in general, are capable people who are just doing their jobs.

That's a very very scary thing to say. "Just doing my job" has been used time and again historically to distance oneself from the responsibility taken when performing certain actions. Just doing your job is not the standard that needs to be met.

> They aren't bothering me and I'm not bothering them.

And most likely they never will.

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

> The past actions of the US government or hypothetical scenarios based on historical examples just aren't very convincing.

Of course they aren't. After all, it's not you that is personally inconvenienced in any way.

> Anything could happen. But I'm not going to concern myself with it until I see some evidence.

And none that will convince you will ever come. Because if it did it would be too late for you to change your stance anyway.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#164
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Not everyone agrees with you that the tech sector is contributing to the building of a surveillance society or police state. There are a lot of people who have carefully considered the issue and come to the conclusion that facebook knowing what posts you liked or ad networks knowing which pages your IP address has visited is not a Bad Thing. It's clear that you don't agree and all debate is welcome, but I caution you…

What about Palantir, then?

Very hard to suggest they aren't supporting the police state.

It's unquestionable that the tech sector is directly culpable for supporting the cops and the politicians to spy on us... to affirm otherwise is counterfactual. The moral high ground belongs to the people who don't collaborate with those who would rather have us dumb and controlled.

It's pretty hard to respect the pro-surveillance view because it seems flatly head-in-sand ignorant of reality time and time again. We have evidence of surveillance state wrongdoing in hand, and no successes to point to while simultaneously experiencing multiple terror attacks, and yet the pro-surveillance types are steadfast in their position, as though it's a religion.

The Snowden files showed us explicitly that disrupting political groups is actually done via GCHQ! This is very far from protecting the citizens, and is instead stifling them purposefully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intellig...

I actively am discounting the opinion of people that do not understand this threat realized, currently unfolding threat to our democracy. An informed opinion doesn't sound like one passed via the government through the media.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#165
If you are interested in this topic, I highly recommend you read Tradition of Freedom by Bernanos (original title in French: La France contre les robots).

Written in 1944, there is a specific passage where he argues against this "but I have nothing to hide!" argument, only criminals benefits from hiding, right ? He talks about how a simple citizen who never had trouble with the law should stay perfectly free to conceal his identity whenever he likes for whatever reason, and laments how this very idea already died.

The extract is available online [1] in French, the google translation [2] is not that good.

[1] http://www.books.fr/quand-bernanos-predisait-une-societe-sou... [2] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u...

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply, I and many others do not believe that any western government is going to use information gathered by tech companies to preempt threats to entrenched interests and the status quo. It's simply hard to take your stance as one made in good faith. The US government has a long history of using its national police, the FBI, to infiltrate and subvert domestic political movements that the powers that be found unplea…

You're saying, "We should not trust the government because they did things that I didn't agree with in the past". This seems like an unfair standard to hold any person or group of people to. I would be unhappy if people said "I think that karmacondon has made mistakes in the past, so he shouldn't be trusted to do his job ever again." I understand what you're saying, and I think I get where you're coming from. But lik…

Not trusting the government because they have a perpetually anti-freedom mindset is completely fair. Are we supposed to take their every action as piecemeal and then be constantly surprised when they do the wrong thing?

They don't just monitor criminals-- that's why the anti-surveillance folks are anti surveillance! They monitor everyone, and create criminals as needed, and nobody can question them for fear of ending up on the chopping block.

They are currently very far out of hand, and "we the people" are doing somewhere between jack and shit because of how little the people understand the problem.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#167
There are so many unproven ideas and theses in the first (argumenting) sentence alone.

Maybe privacy is a right granted by someone. But do I need to fight for all rights? Can I not trade some for some others? E.g. I don't want to live in a completely free market, becaues in a completely free market thiefs and bullies always win. In our real life markets at least they need a lawyer's license first, which stops some of them from succeeding.

Does it really underpin freedom of expression? Is complete freedom of expression something that is worth fighting for, something people want? Look at something where expression is nearly completely free: Clothes. Most people tend to wear what other people wear.

Free society. What is that? Why do I need it?

Democratic society. Doesn't the current global development show that democracy is failing us? Every system comes to an end, and democracy certainly is behind the top of the hill.

I stopped reading after that sentence. If a blog post doesn't even think about the nuances of what they are talking about, there won't be much content anyways.

Just a little side note: I was in China three times now. Many people consider China very unfree, very undemocratic. But I see people there having more hope, more optimism and more opportunity to develop their dreams than we have in the west. And mobile internet is developing bigger and faster there than anywhere else, despite having nearly everything run via one mobile, government observed app: Wechat. In some regards I wonder if it is really "despite" government control or "because".

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to agree. I'd like to see more active ostracisation against software developers that have worked for organisations like the NSA and GCHQ. If we can make it a career ending job, it will dramatically reduce their ability to recruit. However, I'd also like to see general software development think more closely about the role it has in normalising these things. Next time you start to create an account system…

But... NSA, GCHQ, BSI/BND, etc. aren't the "bad guy" in theory. It's within a nation's interest to, within the extent of law and respect for human rights, try as thoroughly has it can to know what's going on in the world. Electronic intelligence is part of that, and a growing part. In practice, the permissive reactions many/most/all governments have to allegations (or proof) that a comms intel agency has broken the l…

In reality, the software engineers that work for the above are the goons of the bad guys, and we cannot allow them to continue their work as it is detrimental to our interests. Any amount of perspective informs them that what they are doing is not supportive of a democratic state, yet they continue anyway.

Why must we accommodate their subservience? Following orders is no excuse.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#169

There are very few topics where I just cannot get the point of the discussion among smart people, but this is one of them. Look at the real world NOW, 15 years after all the surveillance. You still can explode bombs and kill people middle in a european capital without any encryption at all. Is this the kind of surveillance you are afraid of? If you want to hide something, there are infinitely many ways to do this. No…

Yes because you assume the people who are collecting your data are ethical, secure and will always share your opinions and beliefs.

Say your bank account information was stolen and someone used it to blackmail you because as you said it would have, "implications in some social aspects".

Say the country you live in converted to a religion you are not part of or want to be any part of. Imagine if they had a record of your beliefs and used it as a handy tool in mass genocide.

Say someone working for the government or a start up was jealous of something you had, and used their access to take your information in order to discredit you.

Say you medical information was sold by a fitness start up that went bust and sold to insurance companies to bump your premium.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be unhappy if people said "I think that karmacondon has made mistakes in the past, so he shouldn't be trusted to do his job ever again." It's not about mistakes. Mistakes are - usually - a sign that someone needed to learn. They do not as a rule include wanton intent. And if a person were to make too many mistakes then they probably should not be trusted. > I understand what you're saying, and I think I get…

We both made the mistake of discussing the US government like it's a single entity. We're talking about hundreds or thousands of individuals spanning multiple generations. I'm not going to worry about government metadata collection because of something that happened during the Eisenhower administration. Each person and group of people should be evaluated based on their own behavior and merits, not the reputation of t…

Don't bring up the Eisenhower administration, it isn't relevant.

It's also quite foolish to try to evaluate people in a vacuum... would you extend the same privilege to a member of a criminal gang or jihadi group? No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intellig...

https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

"Campaigns operated by JTRIG have broadly fallen into two categories; cyber attacks and propaganda efforts. The propaganda efforts (named "Online Covert Action"[4]) utilize "mass messaging" and the “pushing [of] stories” via the medium of Twitter, Flickr, Facebook and YouTube.[2] Online “false flag” operations are also used by JTRIG against targets.[2] JTRIG have also changed photographs on social media sites, as well as emailing and texting work colleagues and neighbours with "unsavory information" about the targeted individual.[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEXINT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_Nerve_%28GCHQ%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%...

There's your evidence-- it's been here all along. These programs are targeted at US citizens, some with the explicit aim of discrediting them, blackmailing them, or propagandizing them. These are not the actions of a friendly nanny state but rather a malevolent surveillance state.

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