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Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

robindoherty.com

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Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#81
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

One thing people seem particularly blind about is that private companies holding data from their own purposes is the huge point of failure for privacy. The government can get your gmail, facebook, verizon, amazon data because those companies keep that data about you. The NSA doesn't need to spy on you, google already does. I don't think the NSA is reading my email, but I know Google is. Not to mention that when all t…

A lot of people are not blind about this at all.

They understand fully that their data is collected and they expect nothing less than the top result of their Google, Amazon, and Facebook queries to match exactly what they are looking for.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#82
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Doctors are actually professional. They have rigorous certifications, they have a professional board that administers examinations and issues licenses, they have a defined structure for reporting ethics violations with a code of ethics dating back centuries.

Programmers are just a loosely-defined group of tinkerers, labourers, and the odd scientist or engineer. How do you expect to impose a structure on that? A teenager can tinker around with software in his bedroom and nobody gives a damn. If he were to conduct medical experiments on his little sister, on the other hand, he'd go to jail. That is the difference.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#83
Whenever I read one of these articles I am wondering why the examples of WHY mass surveillance affects ME as average Joe negatively have to be so weak / contrived:

For example, imagine someone convinced by the argument "nothing to hide nothing to fear". Would this example convince them that in fact they do have to fear something? "You might think twice about contacting or meeting people (exercising your freedom of association) who you think might become “persons of interest” to the state". I do not think so, after all, average Joe does not know such people.

The solution, in my experience when talking to sceptical people not convinced of the risks is talking about money. Imagine someone with the kind of knowledge we are talking about with mass surveillance. And imagine this person could inform your insurance companies. Do you still think that you have nothing to hide? One then must only show that data is never "safe" and could always be "leaked" to make a very simple, everyday example of why it is not in my (average Joe's) interest to be continuously monitored.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

I believe it is a flaw of the human personality that makes us want to hide information and eventually lie about it. Who said anything about lying being a part of a desire for privacy? I don't care if Google or the government knows that I'm searching "[insert embarassing keywords for you here] Would you care if a prospective insurer knows you're (hypothetically) searching for "atrial fibrillation management" or "opiat…

> Any of those searches could be legitimately borne of pure, unadulterated curiosity, but taken out of that context by people with whom you're hoping to establish some kind of relationship, they could easily doom that relationship before it begins. Hell, those searches may not even be made by you but by someone in your household, but if decisions are made and opinions are formed based in that information, you've suffered an unnecessary loss.

I think the negative effects there are largely due to how private we are. If we were constantly confronting these things that seem embarrassing or concerning, we'd come to realize how normal they are.

It would require a completely shift in how we view privacy, one so large I doubt it would ever happen, but I think those are ultimately a symptom of the current system, where we often keep things private for the sake of societal or cultural norms, sometimes to personal detriment.

I'm not particularly arguing that either way is inherently right or wrong - but I do think the consequences you speak of are only meaningful in a world where a large measure of privacy, at least between most people in their day to day interactions, exists.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#85

This issue always boils down to the LOTR argument for me: the surveillance power is too great, and no individual or group can or should be trusted with it, regardless of its actual current or potential future benefits. The crux of the debate then is where to draw the line between safe and unsafe amounts of power?

One fact that mitigates the risk of large scale abuse by government is that the power to surveil is easily gained by a bad faith government.

Bush administration is a good example. They just did warrant-less wiretapping. It wasn't hard or particularly expensive. No public debate. And that was a government that more or less followed the rule of law. Imagine one that no longer follows the rule of law.

You don't even need an apparatus. Just send an FBI analyst to pick up Sundar Pichai and Zuckerberg. Have the companies run queries on their own database.

Our government already has the power to mass murder. Obama can order entire continents destroyed. The air force can drop a JDAM on any house in America. The police can arrest any political enemy of the state. The government already has immense power.

Comparatively the sort of privacy issues we are talking about are smaller powers. And like I argued above, they are easy to acquire.

Any government willing to abuse the power of surveillance would be willing to flaunt the law to create a surveillance program overnight (well not literally, but they could do it in months).

I'm not arguing that there is no downside to surveillance power, just that it's not as dangerous as many make it out to be. For example, there is still risk in official abuse by government employees acting rouge. There is risk of data leaks. And smaller scale abuses that can be covered up or that the public wouldn't care about.

But I think the fear that we shouldn't give the government power to surveil because they might go full nazi/communist/theocracic/etc. is silly.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#86
post #79
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Large parts of the tech crowd are making big money from advertising and tracking people. Unsurprisingly, it seems these developers and entrepreneurs have a hard time understanding why their source of income has negative effects on society.

I can't help but be reminded of a sentence by Theodor Adorno:

    Keineswegs weiß man bestimmt, wie die Fetischisierung
    der Technik in der individuellen Psychologie der 
    einzelnen Menschen sich durchsetzt, wo die Schwelle ist
    zwischen einem rationalen Verhältnis zu ihr und jener
    Überwertung, die schließlich dazu führt, daß einer, der
    ein Zugsystem ausklügelt, das die Opfer möglichst
    schnell und reibungslos nach Auschwitz bringt, darüber
    vergißt, was in Auschwitz mit ihnen geschieht.[0]
    
In short: the fetishization of technology makes its creators forget for which purposes their wonderfully efficient tools will finally be put to use.

[0] Erziehung zur Mündigkeit, S. 91

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#87

Personally I really think that encryption is a matter of second amendment and in the day of knowledge and communication the right to bear encryption should fall under the second amendment. Hell, the US even classifies encryption as a munition. We should be using the same argument for encryption that we are using for the right to own guns and form militias. I wonder if the encryption will be recognized as a right unde…

meh - the second amendment isn't very popular these days, and outside the US (well of course it doesn't apply but additionally) people really don't seem to appreciate it

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#88
post #4

I have two unrelated thoughts. "Chilling effect" has always been a profound term for me, because I imagine the "cold" (numbness really) sensation a human body often senses when something truly awful (disembowlment/dismemberment) occurs. The body's way of protecting itself is to go "cold", and in many ways that's exactly the effect taking place here, as well. There's also an undeniable part of this conversation that r…

I would like to see law enforcement focus on combating cases of child abuse in the real world instead of focusing so much on what happens online. The online component has been criminalized due to the argument that internet demand will spur abuse in the real world - I see the logic of that.

However, the true wins will come by doing real-world police work, educating parents and children on how to protect themselves and what are the potential offender profiles (hint: not guys in an ice cream van). They will come on a diplomatic level by negotiating better laws in countries where such materials are produced (Japan was a recent success AFAIK) and where sexual tourism is rife.

Finally, those individuals that haven't abused anyone should receive support from a mental health specialist if they come forward and admit to their urges, like in e.g Germany.

I have the feeling that this is a taboo subject, that is not discussed frankly in most societies. The authorities focus mostly on harsh punishments instead of prevention through education and mental health treatment.

Thinking about what happens on tor is mostly a reactive policy that doesn't do much to treat the causes.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#90
post #82
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Doctors are actually professional . They have rigorous certifications, they have a professional board that administers examinations and issues licenses, they have a defined structure for reporting ethics violations with a code of ethics dating back centuries. Programmers are just a loosely-defined group of tinkerers, labourers, and the odd scientist or engineer. How do you expect to impose a structure on that? A teen…

Doctors (as a profession) have a professional regulatory board and are educated on the ethical proceedings, but doctors (as an individual) can be just as corrupt as anyone else. The difference is accountability within the profession. If a doctor starts doling out tons of prescription opiates, an auditing system is in place (Many levels in fact - either within the state, nationally via the DEA, by someone arrested who will rat the doctor out in exchange for lenient terms, or by a pharmacist who has seen one too many "Oxycodone 30 take as needed" pass through his shop.)

Programmers (as individuals) can't be ethically audited, but what we can do is regulate the data which is allowed to be collected. You regulate it like any other industry. Sigma-Aldrich is a corporate company that sells pharmaceutical grade precusors. I was dating a girl who was doing a post-doc in o-chem, in her office waiting to finish up something, and flipped through their catalog. I saw a precursor that was heavily flagged by the DEA which could be used to synthesize massive amounts of a recreational drug. Curious, I asked her the procedure for procurement, and she delineated it. In short, she could get it with a sign-off from the PI and a few other things fairly easily [she would never do that, she's far too ethical - but her PI was famous enough that a request on his letterhead with "Veritas" on it would have been enough] but there's a chain of custody and auditing system in that just like there is with doctors who are issued DEA numbers. If I call up S-A and ask for the same chemical not only would I be laughed off the phone, but they'd likely submit my information to the DEA to flag me for further investigation.

What am I getting at? You can't regulate people, but you can regulate systems. If that precursor was ordered and that drug happened to pop-up, the DEA could easily call up any of the suppliers of those precursors and figure out when it was dispensed fairly easily. We need to regulate any institution that collects data in the same way. When it's at a point where the institution is large enough to collect information at a level like that, issue compliance terms. In the same way publicly traded companies have to release financial information to the SEC and comply with numerous reporting terms (look at EDGAR to see how extensive it is), open up another branch of the government that is in charge of regulating the companies that collect data. That way, your engineer with loosely-defined morals who is capable of doing whatever will be prosecuted just like amoral doctors.

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