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Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

robindoherty.com

61–70 of 329 posts

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#61

"This affects all of us. We must care." is not an effective way of convincing someone. I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should. It's just my opinion. I know other people do but please don't generalize.

Can I have access to your Senator's philandering text messages so that I can bribe them to make a vote you don't support?

you don't mean bribe, you mean blackmail. It's a good example. When you get anonymous, credible, extortion/blackmail attempts a good reaction is to go to the FBI and say, look, some anonymous person is blackmailing/extorting me. (a crime).

Now you can decide whether you want the courts to have any ability to connect that crime to the medium that you were communicated via, or whether that information should simply vanish in the ether, leaving anyone to blackmail or extort anyone else from the safety of their own home and behind an anonymous Internet connection.

you've, in fact, made the opposite point to the one that you meant to :) when crimes start getting committed, sometimes society needs recourse.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#62

"This affects all of us. We must care." is not an effective way of convincing someone. I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should. It's just my opinion. I know other people do but please don't generalize.

>>I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should. When late 19th century Germany started recording census data, a clerk made the suggestion that they should also record each person's religion. No one objected. What could be the harm, right? They were already collecting age, gender, occupation, etc. so they might as well collect one more thing. Half a century later, the Nazis were able to use tho…

Yes! Everybody should read https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/the_value_of_... who quotes Cardinal Richelieu "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."

As Schneier puts it: two proverbs sum it up: "Who watches the watchers?" and "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#63
Personally I really think that encryption is a matter of second amendment and in the day of knowledge and communication the right to bear encryption should fall under the second amendment. Hell, the US even classifies encryption as a munition. We should be using the same argument for encryption that we are using for the right to own guns and form militias.

I wonder if the encryption will be recognized as a right under the second amendment by the court if it goes to that.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#64
I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance.

We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically.

Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences.

What we have instead are anachronistic discussions on things like privacy that seem oddly disconnected from 300 years of accumulated wisdom on surveillance, privacy, free speech and liberty to pretend the obvious is not obvious, and delay the need for ethical behavior and introspection. And this from a group of people who have routinely postured extreme zeal for freedom and liberty since the early 90's and produced one Snowden.

That's a pretty bad record by any standards, and indicates the urgent need for self reflection, industry bodies, standards, whistle blower protection and for a wider discussion to insert context, ethics and history into the debate.

The point about privacy is not you, no one cares what you are doing so an individual perspective here has zero value, but building the infrastructure and ability to track what everyone in a society is doing, and preempt any threat to entrenched interests and status quo. An individual may not need or value privacy but a healthy society definitely needs it.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#65
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is valid and should be fairly represented, but consider that your reasons for not caring about privacy may be flawed or inconsistent. Assuming that you don't care about privacy because you're apathetic, do you also not care about free speech because you don't say anything controversial? Do you care about your right to assembly even if you don't protest anything? As an extreme example upon which t…

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

> I personally do not care about privacy.

> Free speech is a completely different topic.

((James Madison rolling over in grave))

Oh, but freedom is not a different topic. These two types are enshrined in the US Constitution after centuries of experience in the old world.

Imagine that you are too young or too lucky so far to have information used against you or your family. Yet history shows that it happens again and again, and will again.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#66

"This affects all of us. We must care." is not an effective way of convincing someone. I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should. It's just my opinion. I know other people do but please don't generalize.

>I personally do not care about privacy.

You might think that, but it's just a matter of time really before someone asks you a question you don't want to answer. The users of Ashley Madison certainly had something to hide. They weren't doing anything illegal, so why should there have been any concern about privacy?

It's somewhat humorous when politicians use the "nothing to hide" argument. The governments and politicians seems to have the most to hide. It should be any problem for any government to release all information about any decision ever made, at least not after the fact.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#67
post #49
post #4

I have two unrelated thoughts. "Chilling effect" has always been a profound term for me, because I imagine the "cold" (numbness really) sensation a human body often senses when something truly awful (disembowlment/dismemberment) occurs. The body's way of protecting itself is to go "cold", and in many ways that's exactly the effect taking place here, as well. There's also an undeniable part of this conversation that r…

Limiting privacy to stuff that's "not Evil" is unworkable, because there's no reliable way to distinguish "good" from "evil". For example, many Wahhabi Muslims consider homosexuality to be at least as evil as child pornography. And indeed, some decades ago, that was virtually the case in the US.

That's moral relativism. It can be used to argue that blood transfusions are evil, or that slavery isn't.

It would be better to ask whether someone, who is not a willing participant, is harmed by the activity. That's easier to establish.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#68
post #48
post #2

Very good, but it's funny how on the "why IPVanish" page he links to, the first reason given for using a VPN is, to watch Netflix from any location! Oh the horror of limited localised Netflix content. We must protect ourselves. (Really it is awful, I use a VPN for that purpose too). But the point is, it doesn't seem popular to hide metadata from ISPs with VPNs. Will it ever be popular? I'm not so sure. For good or ba…

I think Snowden showed that it is as easy as pressing a button which is why he went and blurted it out. The NSA were also working to make it easier to track people. My take on it is privacy is dead or nearly and we have to have good legal protections of who can use what data and when. The privacy arms race will mostly be won by big government with lots of resources and enough willing/foolish patriots (Depending on yo…

I agree. And the logical next step is that there will be inevitably abuses, that some of the victims of these abuses will ultimately access power, and that we will have proper privacy protection after that, like we do for regular mail or like we do for your physical home.

It is just a shame that we have to go through the whole cycle given that we just know it should happen. But in a way, the more extensive the surveillance is, the quicker this cycle will happen. And right now we are in a pretty bad place already. So let's be optimistic!

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#69
The definition of "privacy" very much differs significantly among different generations and cultures. Compare the Dutch to the Americans, or anyone over 35 with anyone in their teens or early 20s. There is a smaller overlap in what they all consider "private" than you'd at first think.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#70
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

I'm inclined to agree. I'd like to see more active ostracisation against software developers that have worked for organisations like the NSA and GCHQ. If we can make it a career ending job, it will dramatically reduce their ability to recruit.

However, I'd also like to see general software development think more closely about the role it has in normalising these things. Next time you start to create an account system for your project, ask yourself whether you really need it. Could you engineer around it, perhaps by letting the user store their data, or using a stored key to identify them? Let's go beyond don't store what you can't protect, and aim for don't store what you don't strictly need.

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