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My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

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Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#151
post #10

PG's simplified essay seems like attack on a strawman; he's mainly arguing that inequality is good, but then mostly everybody agrees with that. The issue people see (and PG conveniently ignores) is increasing inequality - not locally increasing (i.e. an enterpreneur becoming rich because of a successful business idea), but globally increasing inequality, which happens because of rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying po…

I don't know why Paul couldn't use the term "consumer surplus" in the essay, because I ( perhaps erroneously ) see that as what he is defending.

Let me define terms. "Profit" - nominally, returns above investment - can either be rents or a reflection of consumer surplus, or a mix of both.

If there is a problem here, it is that we have a hard time distinguishing ... consumer-surplus-bearing-profit from rents. Because this isn't easy. We are also confused because monopolistic - monpsomistic, really - behavior as re the application of the Sherman Act against Standard Oil resulted in lowered end price for consumers. This is a WTF> rich environment.

I suspect that if we worked harder at it, rather than relying on just-so stories, we'd be better at it. So to me, the whole argument looks like learned helplessness. As a culture, we seem to prefer to not be able to distinguish between them.

As to the rest of your list, IMO ( and very aggressively-and-error-prone IMO ):

- tax-avoidance is just inevitable, and there's arguably nothing wrong with it re: Tim Worstall's continued line of reasoning. The entire edifice of using taxes to modify behavior is rather nauseating. It is inherently a game and trying to de-gamify it seems utterly pointless.

If you've ever had a conversation about tax-avoidance with a tax-avoider, it's clearly not much about the money any more. Milton Friedman talks in places about how it costs more to avoid most ( well-made ) taxes than to simply pay them - which is consistent with my observation.

- Buying political influence is of dubious ... provenance - we, again, get just-so stories and bias confirmation instead of hard empirical work. "Access" isn't an obvious good, and seeking photos with famous people who happen to be politicians seems like seeking photos of yourself with famous people, to me. As a thought experiment - is there enough money in the world to make, say Ted Cruz, embrace, say, abortion?

- corruption is well understood and easily preventable. It exists if and only if the public face of the polity presents the contradiction that we want a public servant to work for less than what their market value is. "Renormalizing" the ... values-field of the tax scheme is in order.

To my ear, the (inevitable) corruption surrounding alcohol Prohibition in the US is the mechanism for parsing this out. There's little more to it than constructing good, sound models in which we price corruption and then do what we can to behave as if we mean that.

- nepotism seems insoluble outside of somehow magically adding market pressure to make it unpleasant. It's also hard because we, at the same time, say "hire people you know from within your network because that information is expensive." But I suspect it's its own reward, from firsthand observation.

- inheritance is empirically rather uninteresting outside of a handful of pathological cases.

See how easy this is? I've solved the entire thing in a blog reply. HA! :)

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#152
post #111
post #50

You've reframed the problem to wealth influencing politics, which still isn't something that needs to be fixed by taking money away from people. Redistribution is a decent solution to resource problems, but this isn't that kind of problem. Ending money in politics is hard to do using the levers of democracy since those levers have already been purchased, so I understand the desire to end extreme wealth instead. There…

This is a very interesting mixture of two ideas I hadn't really considered before. Has this been discussed or brought up here previously? Is the only real obstacle to this adoption? It seems like an extreme transparency, but the lack of a central authority while maintaining reliability is very compelling.

I bring it up in comments here any time it's relevant, but it hasn't had its own discussion. Adoption is the only obstacle, but tools and infrastructure are obstacles to adoption. There's lots of software to write before it's easy for people to install a mobile wallet app that banishes oligarchical influences from their personal economy.

A bug/feature that needs to be addressed is that this mechanism can be used to enforce any rule enough people decide to pursue. We've discovered a lot of the ways our form of governance can go wrong over the past few hundred years, and we've even fixed some of them. We have to do the same thing for merit capitalism and limit its use until we know how to use it without causing catastrophes. Luckily, we can use merit capitalism to limit the use of merit capitalism: if someone breaks the "constitution" of acceptable uses, they can be sanctioned. We can slowly evolve the constitution as we learn more.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#153
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The global decrease in inequality is barely there, and some argue is an illusion due to the wealthiest individuals being adept at hiding their wealth. What is there is only due to India and China starting to have something resembling a middle class (but even so their standard of living would be unacceptable from someone who grew up in the US.) In the rest of the developed world (US, Europe, Japan, etc.) average wages…

> What is there is only due to India and China starting to have something resembling a middle class (but even so their standard of living would be unacceptable from someone who grew up in the US.) I don't understand what you mean when you say it's "only" due to India and China starting to have a middle class. That is literally the definition of decreasing inequality globally: people who were previously below middle c…

> I don't understand what you mean when you say it's "only" due to India and China starting to have a middle class. That is literally the definition of decreasing inequality globally: people who were previously below middle class have increased their standing.

Two points:

1) Income inequality in these countries is very similar to that in the US. In the case of China, where I am, it is arguably worse than the US. So they are not producing a decrease in global income inequality -- rather they are helping accelerating inequality by dramatically increasing the inequality in the two largest nations.

2) The concept of middle class is completely orthogonal to the concept of income inequality. Whether the middle class is increasing or shrinking tells you nothing about if income inequality is increasing or shrinking. Being middle class simply means you are bought into the system, so not working class, but not wealthy enough to not work, so not upper class. You a house and your children are being well educated. You have a vested interest in maintaining the society but not the power to control it.[1] The middle class be grown and it can shrink. It has no connection to quantiles. It has no connection to the median or average income levels other than how they relate to the cost of living. You can have low income inequality with a tiny middle class (classic low development nation). You can have high income inequality with a large middle class (traditional example being the US). You can have high income inequality with a small middle class (typically middle income countries such as Chile). Of course you can have, what in my mind is the ideal, low income inequality with a large middle class (Sweden being a good example).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#154

I think that large income inequality has been harmful in the past because of scarcity. If a small number of people had a lot more money than the masses, it meant the masses were starving. Technology has the ability to potentially change this. It hasn't yet; it's mostly just given us the ability to play Candy Crush and look at what our friends ate for dinner while waiting in line at the store. But it will. And it's a…

But human nature is not as variable as human circumstances. Jealousy and envy can be just as strong even if you aren't starving.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#155
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inheritance taxes on their own will do nothing to change the situation because then you'll simply concentrate all the wealth in corporate structures that transcend the death of their owners. Even if you make it impossible to 'pass down' these structures as property, you will have de-facto inheritance through nepotism and clan structures.

This doesn't make sense to me. At the end of the day, all stock must be owned by actual people, even if it is through a network of other corporate entities and trusts. A corporation may transcend the death of its owners, but if I own 50% of a corporation, and I gift my shares to an heir (or even let them purchase it at a discount), the government will still take their cut.

Sure - let's assume for a moment that inheritance tax does work to distribute ownership. That simply removes 'ownership' as the instrument for control, positions within the corporate structure would then become the 'title' to the assets, and these would be passed down through nepotism and clan structures as I mentioned.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#156
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never had several deliberately inflicted famines killing millions of people. In every single example you listed Communist countries were demonstrably worse. Humanity is capable of some pretty awful things under any system of government - Communism, or perhaps the way it comes about, has consistently demonstrated that itself better at enabling our worst impulses compared to democratic capitalism. That people, inclu…

How about your native population? And your police force is still shooting former slaves on a daily basis.

I'm British - the police over here killed 3 people last year, and that was an above average year. The USA is not the entire set of Western Liberal Democracies.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#157
post #87
post #10

PG's simplified essay seems like attack on a strawman; he's mainly arguing that inequality is good, but then mostly everybody agrees with that. The issue people see (and PG conveniently ignores) is increasing inequality - not locally increasing (i.e. an enterpreneur becoming rich because of a successful business idea), but globally increasing inequality, which happens because of rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying po…

The thing I would add to your comment is that inequality in productivity is increasing. And this is actually is good reason for increasing inequality of wealth distribution. Rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying political influence, monopolistic behavior, corruption and nepotism should go. I'm somewhat torn on the inheritance issue though. From the point of view of young children, inheritance is unfair. From the point…

[deleted]

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#158
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a meaningless statistic It's only meaningless if you cherry-pick your examples and draw your opinions from those examples. For 99 percent of the population, wealth is a fair reflection of the actual comparative wealth of individuals.

Not in the developed West it isn't. I'm a fortunate young professional in that I have a stonking great mortgage and still owe (some, it is the UK) of my student loan. In wealth terms I'm doing OK but not great, certainly not in liquid / disposable wealth terms as well as before my property. In the long run however my decisions will likely lead to me being much wealthier than if I maximised my present wealth at all ti…

Some would suggest that as a young professional in the UK, presumably in a tech related field, and who moves in social circles that include "plenty of posh people who have inherited money", then maybe you are a poor yardstick to be measuring things against.

What you're basically saying is "people with inherited wealth have a great life, similar to mine, and much like me, they're probably totally blasé about exactly how good they have it".

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#160
post #115

PG:"We will not do a good job of fixing the bad causes of economic inequality unless we attack them directly. But if we fix all the bad causes of economic inequality, we will still have increasing levels of it, due to the increasing power of technology" I still don't get what PG is trying to say. For example few years ago Google and Apple bosses made secret agreement to not hire employees of the competing company. Th…

How do you know what the goal of the conspiracy was? Another possible goal was to stop the destabilization of projects by having the leads strategically poached. Neither goal makes it legal, but since you don't know the goal, the example doesn't support your argument.
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