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My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

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Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#51
post #10

PG's simplified essay seems like attack on a strawman; he's mainly arguing that inequality is good, but then mostly everybody agrees with that. The issue people see (and PG conveniently ignores) is increasing inequality - not locally increasing (i.e. an enterpreneur becoming rich because of a successful business idea), but globally increasing inequality, which happens because of rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying po…

With you on inheritance, that seems like a great place to start. It would have no impact on startups and would have a great effect on the corruptive forces behind generational aristocracy.

I've been thinking a lot about PGs assumption that you have to kill startups to decrease economic inequality. Is that really what's driving economic inequality's increase? Couldn't you quite likely have a world in which first generation entrepreneurs continue to be increasingly successful, but economic inequality doesn't increase lock-step with that?

For example, decreasing generational wealth, more of the proceeds from the increasing number of technology enabled companies going to more people (this certainly is a major factor at Google now for example), poverty decreasing (as PG suggests should be our target), and more seems like a world in which these ideas could co-exist.

It seems absolutely true that decreasing inequality for the sake of decreasing inequality's sake would be bad, which seems to be PGs point - you have to be targeting something that is specifically bad on its own, and perhaps which has a byproduct that is bad which is increasingly economic inequality. That seems right. But the idea that economic inequality will inevitably increase UNLESS we destroy the ability for people to start companies can't be correct.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#52
post #10

PG's simplified essay seems like attack on a strawman; he's mainly arguing that inequality is good, but then mostly everybody agrees with that. The issue people see (and PG conveniently ignores) is increasing inequality - not locally increasing (i.e. an enterpreneur becoming rich because of a successful business idea), but globally increasing inequality, which happens because of rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying po…

Your statement here: "he's mainly arguing that inequality is good" is contradicted by the second paragraph of even his simplified version: But economic inequality per se is not bad. It has multiple causes. Many are bad, but some are good. His main point isn't that economic inequality is good, and he says as much.

I would argue that a reading of the PG essay that doesn't describe it as a series of arguments for ignoring / tolerating / encouraging economic inequality is, at best, flawed.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#53
post #10

PG's simplified essay seems like attack on a strawman; he's mainly arguing that inequality is good, but then mostly everybody agrees with that. The issue people see (and PG conveniently ignores) is increasing inequality - not locally increasing (i.e. an enterpreneur becoming rich because of a successful business idea), but globally increasing inequality, which happens because of rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying po…

> globally increasing inequality At a global level, inequality has not been increasing. Globalization has been a huge win for developing nations in this regard (and the people who have paid the price are low-wage workers in developed nations like the US). This is not to say that we have to conclude that globalization has been a good thing overall for developing nations - there are lots of problems it has caused for t…

Right, that's true. Then let's say "nationally increasing inequality". I'm pretty sure that emerging nations will follow (some are already following) the trends of concentration of capital very soon.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#54
post #16

> Today, the top 1% control fully half of the planet's wealth This is a meaningless statistic given negative wealth is possible (indeed common). By this simple measure a recent MBA graduate of Harvard with 200k debt and no assets is poorer than a Mumbai slum dweller with 2 rupees in his pocket. I would argue that's not a fair reflection of the actual comparative wealth of the two individuals. A potentially better mea…

> This is a meaningless statistic It's only meaningless if you cherry-pick your examples and draw your opinions from those examples. For 99 percent of the population, wealth is a fair reflection of the actual comparative wealth of individuals.

It's hardly cherry picking. I don't know exactly the percentage, but let's say 50% of the US population is net in debt. So all these people are poorer than the millions in developing nations without a penny to their name? As above, I would argue no, they are not. Hence this statistic doesn't mean much.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#55
post #3

The only thing I'd disagree with is the statement 'we're nowhere near there' with regard to oligarchy and societal collapse. I think we're quite close. We have an entire generation where a tiny proportion have great prospects and the rest have steadily diminishing prospects and increasing stress, and we have educated people who grew up in the west going to join an expressly suicidal terrorist organization. We have a…

>I think we're quite close. USA: 5% unemployment, GDP per capita of $55,000, 78.74 years life expectancy, Human Development Index: 8, etc. EU: 9% unemployment, GDP per capita $38,000, 78.82 years life expectancy, Human Development Index: 6 average, etc. Yeah, we're not "close." Meanwhile countries like the BRIC nations, especially authoritarian autocracies like China or Russia, with terrible inequality and 100x the p…

5% unemployment does not mean that the majority is happy with their employment(s) or not stressed by it.

GDP per capita is an average and does not reflect how the wealth is distributed.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#56
Paul Graham, like nearly everyone in today's politics, fails to appreciate the near-universal validity, at least when it comes to social and economic policy, of Ron's First Law: All extreme positions are wrong.

I realize this is tongue-in-cheek, but never forget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

One could say that the modern world is largely a result of continuous middle-ground reforms that have built up into in an unfathomable and pathological state. Some radicalism might indeed be in order.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#57
I think that large income inequality has been harmful in the past because of scarcity. If a small number of people had a lot more money than the masses, it meant the masses were starving.

Technology has the ability to potentially change this. It hasn't yet; it's mostly just given us the ability to play Candy Crush and look at what our friends ate for dinner while waiting in line at the store. But it will. And it's a mistake to assume that because income inequality in a world defined by scarcity causes social ills, it will necessarily do so in a post-scarcity society.

Unfortunately using political influence for rent-seeking is a huge problem. I would like to believe, at least in our humble little democracy, that the masses are slowly awakening to this. At some point billionaires won't be able to use social-issue boogeymen like abortion and gay rights to convince poor people to vote against their own economic self-interest. I hope.

I think that's implicit in the argument PG is making. Income inequality has always been bad in the past, but the future is not the past. There are variables that may change that.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#58
post #29
post #16

> Today, the top 1% control fully half of the planet's wealth This is a meaningless statistic given negative wealth is possible (indeed common). By this simple measure a recent MBA graduate of Harvard with 200k debt and no assets is poorer than a Mumbai slum dweller with 2 rupees in his pocket. I would argue that's not a fair reflection of the actual comparative wealth of the two individuals. A potentially better mea…

It is further ridiculous that the wealth itself is circularly defined with being rich. Own a house in Denver = Awesome Own a house in Manhattan = Super Rich Own a Dinghy = Awesome Own a Super Yacht = Super Rich So by this simple example the Denver Dinghy owner is much less wealthy on paper than the Manhattanite with a Super Yacht. But you can see that the Denverite has both a house and a vessel and may not need a yac…

> The extra 'wealth' is of no impact to the happy Denver guy.

No one is making any arguments based upon happiness or "Awesome"ness or cost of living.

And yes, the Denverite is less wealthy than the Manhattanite, supposing that they both own houses that were sold to them at the median price of their geographic area.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#59
post #10

PG's simplified essay seems like attack on a strawman; he's mainly arguing that inequality is good, but then mostly everybody agrees with that. The issue people see (and PG conveniently ignores) is increasing inequality - not locally increasing (i.e. an enterpreneur becoming rich because of a successful business idea), but globally increasing inequality, which happens because of rent-seeking, tax avoidance, buying po…

> globally increasing inequality At a global level, inequality has not been increasing. Globalization has been a huge win for developing nations in this regard (and the people who have paid the price are low-wage workers in developed nations like the US). This is not to say that we have to conclude that globalization has been a good thing overall for developing nations - there are lots of problems it has caused for t…

The global decrease in inequality is barely there, and some argue is an illusion due to the wealthiest individuals being adept at hiding their wealth. What is there is only due to India and China starting to have something resembling a middle class (but even so their standard of living would be unacceptable from someone who grew up in the US.)

In the rest of the developed world (US, Europe, Japan, etc.) average wages have been totally left behind by the growth in wealth for the millionaire and billionaire class. In the US especially, average incomes have actually decreased when adjusted for inflation while the billionaires see tremendous growth year after year. It's horrendous.

Re: My simplified response to Paul Graham's simplified essay

#60
post #16

> Today, the top 1% control fully half of the planet's wealth This is a meaningless statistic given negative wealth is possible (indeed common). By this simple measure a recent MBA graduate of Harvard with 200k debt and no assets is poorer than a Mumbai slum dweller with 2 rupees in his pocket. I would argue that's not a fair reflection of the actual comparative wealth of the two individuals. A potentially better mea…

I suppose you would equalize this by counting the MBA's future wages as an asset. Even after subtracting out his MBA debt, the MBA has much more earning potential than the slum dweller.

Well of course, but this is not accounted for in Oxfam's analysis, hence it's pretty meaningless.
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