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Working fewer hours would make us more productive

theguardian.com

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Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#11

Post by tomp »

golergka wrote: post #7

I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach. Imagine that when you sign up for a job, you select how many days per week do you want to work, from 3 to 6, with proportionate wage scale. That you can select what hours do you want to work. That it's easy to change this arrangement while you're…

Laws are pretty important, actually. IIRC, in Slovenia, if you don't work 40 hour weeks, you'll have issues with retirement (e.g. you'll have to retire later, or your pension would be smaller (regardless of your salary)). I'm assuming there are similar issues with health/social insurance.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#12

Post by soft_dev_person »

golergka wrote: post #7

I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach. Imagine that when you sign up for a job, you select how many days per week do you want to work, from 3 to 6, with proportionate wage scale. That you can select what hours do you want to work. That it's easy to change this arrangement while you're…

Your comment (point 2 especially) reflects the current widespread notion (among employers at least, it seems) that one hour of work is one hour of work, always. I think the main point of the article is exactly to counter that.

> "Productivity – output per working hour – improves with shorter hours."

And why should the employer get all the benefit from this? I think a lot of people would love to work fewer hours, be more productive those hours, if they could retain the same salary.

I would love to, at least, but can't afford reduced pay.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#13

Post by robinwarren »

I'd like to believe this article, and in fact strive myself to reduce my working hours one day and have more time for all that other good stuff the article mentions. Shorter weeks could bring a lot of benefits with them to those who can enjoy them. Some problems I have with the article however:

1. Working less may well not result in getting more (or the same amount) done. The article mentions a correlation between shorter working hours and higher productivity. As always, correlation does not equal causation. Most likely those countries with shorter work weeks are developed countries which have higher output per capita than less developed ones not because working 40 hours a weeks is more productive than working 80, but that utilising a higher level of technology gives superior output.

2. The idea that because the Dutch apparently spend all their free time riding around on bikes means the brits would if given more free time is a joke. We'd spend it doing the things we enjoy (damaging our livers?), not suddenly become some imagined healthier happier version of ourselves.

All in all a pretty poor article I think as a result of the above isssues.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#14

Post by DanBC »

robinwarren wrote: post #13

I'd like to believe this article, and in fact strive myself to reduce my working hours one day and have more time for all that other good stuff the article mentions. Shorter weeks could bring a lot of benefits with them to those who can enjoy them. Some problems I have with the article however: 1. Working less may well not result in getting more (or the same amount) done. The article mentions a correlation between sh…

> The article mentions a correlation between shorter working hours and higher productivity. As always, correlation does not equal causation. Most likely those countries with shorter work weeks are developed countries which have higher output per capita than less developed ones not because working 40 hours a weeks is more productive than working 80, but that utilising a higher level of technology gives superior output.

The article is comparing the UK (long working hours, terrible productivity) with Germany (short working hours, very much better productivity).

It's unlikely that there's much difference in the technology available. And they both surely know about all the modern methods of organising a workplace.

I mostly agree with point 2, but

> We'd spend it doing the things we enjoy (damaging our livers?)

Maybe the reason so many british people drink too much is because they're working too much, and they're (mis)using alcohol to wind down.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#15

Post by marklgr »

golergka wrote: post #7

I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach. Imagine that when you sign up for a job, you select how many days per week do you want to work, from 3 to 6, with proportionate wage scale. That you can select what hours do you want to work. That it's easy to change this arrangement while you're…

> We need to stop labeling the first of these persons as "successful" and second one as a "failure"

It's not about judging employees from a moral standpoint, but getting the most skill and involvement going into your project/company. So, one of the questions would be: does 20h/wk + 20h/wk = 40h/wk skills+involvement, ie. is it linear? Wouldn't 20h/wk jobs be limited to inherently part-time, low importance tasks--which means you got to have plenty of funds to staff for them in the 1st place?

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#16

Post by golergka »

soft_dev_person wrote: post #12
golergka wrote: post #7

I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach. Imagine that when you sign up for a job, you select how many days per week do you want to work, from 3 to 6, with proportionate wage scale. That you can select what hours do you want to work. That it's easy to change this arrangement while you're…

Your comment (point 2 especially) reflects the current widespread notion (among employers at least, it seems) that one hour of work is one hour of work, always. I think the main point of the article is exactly to counter that. > "Productivity – output per working hour – improves with shorter hours." And why should the employer get all the benefit from this? I think a lot of people would love to work fewer hours, be m…

> And why should the employer get all the benefit from this?

Thankfully, we don't analytically decide who takes the benefits — labor market is working pretty well at figuring this out.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#17

Post by golergka »

tomp wrote: post #11
golergka wrote: post #7

I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach. Imagine that when you sign up for a job, you select how many days per week do you want to work, from 3 to 6, with proportionate wage scale. That you can select what hours do you want to work. That it's easy to change this arrangement while you're…

Laws are pretty important, actually. IIRC, in Slovenia, if you don't work 40 hour weeks, you'll have issues with retirement (e.g. you'll have to retire later, or your pension would be smaller (regardless of your salary)). I'm assuming there are similar issues with health/social insurance.

I think I covered these issues in my first point: you can do that, it's allowed, but it's just not comfortable to deviate from the norm right now.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#18

Post by Alan01252 »

DanBC wrote: post #14
robinwarren wrote: post #13

I'd like to believe this article, and in fact strive myself to reduce my working hours one day and have more time for all that other good stuff the article mentions. Shorter weeks could bring a lot of benefits with them to those who can enjoy them. Some problems I have with the article however: 1. Working less may well not result in getting more (or the same amount) done. The article mentions a correlation between sh…

> The article mentions a correlation between shorter working hours and higher productivity. As always, correlation does not equal causation. Most likely those countries with shorter work weeks are developed countries which have higher output per capita than less developed ones not because working 40 hours a weeks is more productive than working 80, but that utilising a higher level of technology gives superior output…

Purely anecdotal I know, but since giving up my job in the city and going freelance I have indeed spent far less time drinking and far more time exercising.

A quick one after work was far too common. I buckled far too easily to peer pressure and conformity. After all it's the done thing to do right? A crap day at work is solved by a pint (or three) after? And a good day at work... well that could be considerably more ;)

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#19

Post by golergka »

marklgr wrote: post #15
golergka wrote: post #7

I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach. Imagine that when you sign up for a job, you select how many days per week do you want to work, from 3 to 6, with proportionate wage scale. That you can select what hours do you want to work. That it's easy to change this arrangement while you're…

> We need to stop labeling the first of these persons as "successful" and second one as a "failure" It's not about judging employees from a moral standpoint, but getting the most skill and involvement going into your project/company. So, one of the questions would be: does 20h/wk + 20h/wk = 40h/wk skills+involvement, ie. is it linear? Wouldn't 20h/wk jobs be limited to inherently part-time, low importance tasks--whic…

> Wouldn't 20h/wk jobs be limited to inherently part-time, low importance tasks--which means you got to have plenty of funds to staff for them in the 1st place?

Interesting question. Not necessarily; as a lead developer, I just had an experience of a talented freelancer joining my project for 20 hours per week and helping with issues that we delegated to him so we can fit in the deadline. On one hand, _usually_, 9 women don't make 1 baby in 1 month; on the other hand, in this particular case the freelancer new the technology really well, and we delegated him with special issues that required less knowledge of our whole project and more knowledge of the tech itself.

So — yes, 20h/week limitation creates some problems, when you're working in the 40h/week team, but it's not the end of the world.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#20

Post by robinwarren »

DanBC wrote: post #14
robinwarren wrote: post #13

I'd like to believe this article, and in fact strive myself to reduce my working hours one day and have more time for all that other good stuff the article mentions. Shorter weeks could bring a lot of benefits with them to those who can enjoy them. Some problems I have with the article however: 1. Working less may well not result in getting more (or the same amount) done. The article mentions a correlation between sh…

> The article mentions a correlation between shorter working hours and higher productivity. As always, correlation does not equal causation. Most likely those countries with shorter work weeks are developed countries which have higher output per capita than less developed ones not because working 40 hours a weeks is more productive than working 80, but that utilising a higher level of technology gives superior output…

The article linked to this one http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/09/working-...

That compares data across the OECD, so fair enough this isn't comparing Papua New Guinea to the UK or similar. However, it mentions in the article the difference between Germany and Greece as examples of higher average hours and lower average productivity. I'd still tend to believe this isn't because the Greeks could get more done by working less but that Germans are tackling different work or using more technology in their work than the Greeks.

> Maybe the reason so many british people drink too much is because they're working too much, and they're (mis)using alcohol to wind down.

Maybe. It seems like we agree on this anyway. I was being slightly tongue in cheek here, not trying to suggest all the freed up hours would be spent in the pub :). I'll leave it at that.

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