Live data from Hacker News

Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

paulgraham.com

61–70 of 118 posts

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#61
post #29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment doesn't make any sense without defining "extreme" vs "normal" income equality. That is far from obvious. Do you think that technology alone can't produce extreme income inequality? Why?

This comment doesn't make any sense without defining "extreme" vs "normal" income equality. The argument is over economic inequality which I believe most take to mean wealth inequality, not income inequality. Do you think that technology alone can't produce extreme income inequality? Why? Of course not. You need people using the technology as well. Extreme inequality results from the simple fact (as exhaustively supp…

For any other casual viewers unfamiliar with but interested in economics, the 'r' refers to return on capital and 'g' refers to the growth rate of the economy. This section of the wikipedia article on his book seems to give a quick and decent high level overview that puts this (and a few other comments) into perspective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#62

Economic inequality is bad because it has a profound negative effect on most people's self-esteem and ability to enjoy life. With high inequality, money becomes more valuable and people start to think of everything in terms of money. Even romantic relationships become money-oriented. It's not uncommon for marriages to break up because of financial reasons. Wealth inequality causes more human suffering than moderate p…

Much of that "people were happy under communism" BS is just that: BS. As anyone past the age of about 30 would tell you, you tend to forget the shitty stuff a lot faster than the good stuff. As a result we often hold these romanticized notions of how things used to be. Yet if you actually go ahead and look at some videos from 20-30 years ago from those parts of the world, you see North Korea. No one seriously wants to go back to that, except for US "progressives" who believe rich people should not exist.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#63
PG is still out of touch. His cited example about a plan to move forward:

> For example, instead of attacking economic inequality, we should attack poverty

The problem in America, and the world, is not poverty. In fact, by some metrics poverty rates have never been lower[1] and by others it's near all time lows.

The problem is the oligarchs avoiding taxes, while everyone else (even plain old millionaires shoulder the burden for them). PG reaps obscene levels of benefits from the carried interested tax loophole, so he avoids citing a plan to attack this specifically other than saying tax loopholes in general are bad.

Shame on you PG.

[1] http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/05/news/economy/poverty-world-b...

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are concerned about egregious opulence while others are barely middling along or are impoverished; there is currently no other configuration in which income inequality exists. The other stuff is a distraction until that isn't the case.

It would be wise to remember that we only speak for ourselves.

Except, cryoshon simply echos what a large proportion of the population feels.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/23/around-the-w...

> Americans and publics in Africa are less dissatisfied, but they are hardly happy about the way things are going. More than half of Americans (56%) say the U.S. economy is doing poorly. In the nine African nations surveyed, a median of 51% believe economic conditions are bad. Within Africa there is a particularly wide divergence of opinion. More than seven-in-ten Ghanaians (73%) judge their economy to be performing poorly, while nearly nine-in-ten Ethiopians (89%) believe their economy is in good condition.

https://www.salon.com/2016/01/03/the_middle_class_is_just_th...

> Down here at the pedestrian level, between 2010 and 2014 poverty increased in one third of America’s 3,000 counties, when compared to the 2005 to 2009 period, according to the U.S. Census’s American Community Survey. In fact, the “recovery,” that pastel-colored unicorn, was only seen in the 4 percent of the nation’s counties where poverty actually declined. The rest remained stagnant.

> It should come as no surprise. Millions of Americans lost their homes, and with them the foundation of their household wealth. During the “recovery,” census data documents that the median U.S. household income has actually declined for three years in a row and remains below its peak in 1999.

And the fact that the middle class has been hollowed out:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/...

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#65

I don't buy the assertion that startups increase economic inequality. I mean, I suppose some of them might, but a few people getting rich by producing something of value doesn't equate to an increase in general poverty. A startup might even improve economic inequality. Depends what it does. The whole argument seems to boil down to a fear that improving the general welfare might involve slamming the brakes on innovati…

I'm a little bit surprised that the closing remark of his blog post was "even if you remove all the bad causes, the good causes far outweigh the bad and will cause inequality to further increase."

I guess if one so brazenly believes that to be true, then it must naturally follow that PG would support further inequality.

So it is not that he is against economic inequality per se. He is simply sure (perhaps falsely) of its causes, and believes that if those causes are the majority drivers, then the benefits outweigh the cost.

If he were to be proven wrong about the breakdown of these causes... his opinion might shift.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#66
I agree with this article on its descriptions but not its conclusions. In particular, the conclusion that we should not attack economic inequality directly.

Attacking economic inequality directly might be a good thing to do in many cases. It may be operationally easier and more efficient to have certain restrictions that prevent economic inequality. It can be thought of as a fail-safe when the more direct policy solutions are failing, e.g. legislation that attacks poverty.

For instance, having a maximum wage is executionally simple legislation compared to the legislation required to improve education, healthcare, transportation, etc. Not saying we shouldn't have the more complicated legislation, just that it will take more time and is more complicated and prone to failure. Additionally, not saying maximum wage is a good idea, just using it as an example.

I see what PG is saying, and I think he would agree with my points here, and I agree with the spirit of what he is saying. He's just not that great expressing himself through writing. He tends to make overly strong statements without nuance and write against hypothetical absolute simplistic counterarguments that don't really exist.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#67
post #43

> But economic inequality per se is not bad. Both essays feel like they are built on a strawman argument. Nobody serious said inequality was bad or good, not even Piketty. The discussion is about degrees, and PG adds nothing to it by arguing categorically. That we are talking degrees of inequality is also the reason why economists argue with statistics and do not differentiate much between specific causes or mechanis…

Nobody serious said inequality was bad or good

Lots of very serious people say that inequality is bad:

http://digitalcommons.bard.edu/hm_archive/333/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw&mid=5328

http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2013/07/09/how-big-is-big...

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=11245

http://moslereconomics.com/2009/09/30/inequality-nothing-to-...

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#68
Obviously, nothing with multiple disparate causes and effects is bad per se. But inequality does have at least one negative effect, which is that it distracts the attention of institutions (government, press, academia) towards serving and protecting the interests of the wealthy.

In my view the rhetoric of "attacking" inequality is overblown, even if I'm guilty of having used it myself. Instead, let's just say that some form of redistribution -- to use a broad term -- is not an "attack" per se, but simply a practical way to maintain a decent society.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#69
If I'm not mistaken, Paul Graham is asking to leave "us poor" startups alone because they need the freedom for founders to get rich, otherwise few would do it. Am I understanding that right?

Quoted from his original essay: "And while getting rich is not the only goal of most startup founders, few would do it if one couldn't." [0]

I just can't sink my teeth into thinking that's a universal truth. It's true right now because that's the current rules of the game. You build a company and then make a ton of money, otherwise, you failed. Yet, there are 500+ reasons someone or a couple of people go into a company together, but money being the default driver, seems really cynical to me if you think that's needed to keep people starting companies.

[0] http://www.paulgraham.com/ineq.html

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#70
post #43

> But economic inequality per se is not bad. Both essays feel like they are built on a strawman argument. Nobody serious said inequality was bad or good, not even Piketty. The discussion is about degrees, and PG adds nothing to it by arguing categorically. That we are talking degrees of inequality is also the reason why economists argue with statistics and do not differentiate much between specific causes or mechanis…

The way the phrase is thrown about is unmistakably negative IMO.

For a start, 'inequality' is a phrase borrowed from far clearer grievances such as inequality in legal rights for women, minorities etc. By using it in this economic debate it already frames the question as one of harm to a group of people.

A neutral phrase would be something like 'wealth concentration.'

Post reply on HN