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Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

paulgraham.com

21–30 of 118 posts

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#21
economic inequality is a mathematical fact referring to the idea that growth in outcomes in the US has diverged over the years between various income brackets. see this https://www.cbo.gov/publication/42729

when people say that inequality is bad, what they are talking about is that it is bad that, even though average incomes grew a lot, incomes for the lower brackets grew a lot less than incomes for the higher brackets. As you can see from my link, even taking out successful startup founders ( by not looking at 1%) shows the same trend.

It is a separate discussion whether or not startups increase income inequality ( just because startup founders get rich, it doesn't mean overall inequality has to increase because their products could raise average incomes in other brackets by raising productivity, for example ).

But, focusing on startups is just not terribly relevant for the inequality debate, again, as demonstrated by the fact, that there is a lot of inequality in the 60%th percentile vs 20th percentile, which has nothing to do with startups

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#22

Economic Inequality Simulation: The Simplified version http://nbviewer.ipython.org/url/norvig.com/ipython/Economics... "Many have preconceptions about how economies work that will be challenged by the results shown here"

This is cool. One pet project that I want to do (one day...) is to generate what a wealth distribution graph based on answers to a questionnaire such as:

- How much more should a 50 year old earn more than a 20 year old on average ideally? - How much should the lifetime earning of someone holding a PhD be over someone with only a high school degree - there should be at least some premium for going through extra years of school right? - What's a reasonable amount of inequality due to people choosing a career in which they will be happier, at some cost to the paycheck? - Should people be allowed to work more (e.g. 50h/week) if they wish? This will increase inequality. - etc

A lot of those questions would be very difficult to model, but I bet the graph would look a lot more inequal at the end than most people envision their "ideal" graph to look like (which is shown in this classic video on wealth distribution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM)

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#25
Why do startups necessarily increase economic inequality? I agree that they do now, but is it impossible to have the good of startups without also increasing economic inequality?

Out of the usual reasons people encourage you to either found or work for a startup, "get rich" is not the primary motivator, and "get richer than other people" certainly isn't. (To claim that "get rich" implies "get richer than other people" is to invoke the pie fallacy, which Paul Graham debunked recently.) "Change the world," "have more freedom / creative control than a traditional job", etc. are, and those don't seem to require economic inequality.

For instance, Paul Graham writes in http://paulgraham.com/mit.html :

"For nearly everyone, the opinion of one's peers is the most powerful motivator of all—more powerful even than the nominal goal of most startup founders, getting rich. [...] Even if you start a startup explicitly to get rich, the money you might get seems pretty theoretical most of the time. What drives you day to day is not wanting to look bad."

If you want to imagine startups not causing economic inequality, one approach is a radical restructuring of society, probably involving heavy taxes, as I suggested in a comment previously. But another simple one is to have more people do startups, and to explicitly invest primarily in people and communities that don't have other easy routes of getting rich.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#26

> economic inequality per se is not bad. A lot of research shows that high society-wide economic inequality causes many bad effects, economically, politically and socially. I believe that is the basis of many concerns. According to that research, high inequality is per se bad (I don't know enough to define "high", but many others have). > [inequality due to startup founder success is good] Generally I agree, but: 1)…

You still misunderstood the point of the essay, even when simplified.

> denied the opportunity of such success because of their race, gender, social networks, or economic class ... which deny them access to the important resources such as education, financing, contacts, or jobs.

This is not "economic inequality", reducing "economic inequality" might reduce this or it might not. Its a proximate cause, whereas we should be focusing on ultimate causes. You even list them here: access to education, access to financing, contacts, jobs.

Focus on "economic inequality" is less likely to fix these problems than focus on fixing these problems is (likely even more detailed versions of them).

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#27

> economic inequality per se is not bad. A lot of research shows that high society-wide economic inequality causes many bad effects, economically, politically and socially. I believe that is the basis of many concerns. According to that research, high inequality is per se bad (I don't know enough to define "high", but many others have). > [inequality due to startup founder success is good] Generally I agree, but: 1)…

Isn't he saying that the problem is that economic inequality is seen as the cause, not the effect? I think that's in line with all of the points you brought up.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#28
post #25

Why do startups necessarily increase economic inequality? I agree that they do now, but is it impossible to have the good of startups without also increasing economic inequality? Out of the usual reasons people encourage you to either found or work for a startup, "get rich" is not the primary motivator, and "get richer than other people" certainly isn't. (To claim that "get rich" implies "get richer than other people…

Is it impossible to have the good of startups without also increasing economic inequality?

Yes.

This is discussed in detail in the original essay and in The Refragmentation essay here: http://paulgraham.com/re.html

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#29
post #13
post #6

I am kind of surprised that PG insist on confusing extreme economic inequality (which is the one most people are talking about when they say it's bad) with normal economic inequality (which most people are totally fine with.) Edited to clear up confusion

This comment doesn't make any sense without defining "extreme" vs "normal" income equality. That is far from obvious. Do you think that technology alone can't produce extreme income inequality? Why?

This comment doesn't make any sense without defining "extreme" vs "normal" income equality.

The argument is over economic inequality which I believe most take to mean wealth inequality, not income inequality.

Do you think that technology alone can't produce extreme income inequality? Why?

Of course not. You need people using the technology as well. Extreme inequality results from the simple fact (as exhaustively supported by Piketty) that r > g. Capital, by definition, is technology.

Re: Economic Inequality: The Simplified Version

#30
post #13
post #6

I am kind of surprised that PG insist on confusing extreme economic inequality (which is the one most people are talking about when they say it's bad) with normal economic inequality (which most people are totally fine with.) Edited to clear up confusion

This comment doesn't make any sense without defining "extreme" vs "normal" income equality. That is far from obvious. Do you think that technology alone can't produce extreme income inequality? Why?

Income (in)equality doesn't depend on the kind of work the company does. One of the basic trends you can find in Picketty's "Capital ..." is that instead of investing 1/3 of company income into workers ("reasonable" split), the owner/worker salary gap grows more than ever - and that's the extreme inequality. What the company does is irrelevant in a more general overview.
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