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Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

nytimes.com

131–140 of 383 posts

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#131
post #103
post #4

Personal experience with ACA: As of 2016, we're onto our 3rd insurer. Each prior one has dropped our local doctors, physicians groups and hospital. With each insurance change, our deductible has gone up, our premium has increased and our co-pay, co-insurance has increased. In effect, our ACA plan has become an extremely expensive catastrophic insurance plan.

Comparing to my "free market" insurance before the ACA was passed, I had much more coverage (it was real insurance: eg: pay in advance against a risk, rather than covering pre-existing conditions which violates the definition of insurance, since you're not pooling money against risk, but paying for current liabilities.) ..... and not only did I have more coverage, but my deductibles were 1/5th what they are now and t…

I don't agree with your statement about the New Zealand healthcare system. For instance, in regards to dialysis:

For patients using a haemodialysis machine at home, the health service provides the dialysis machine and all the medical supplies patients need, so the treatment itself is free. The same applies to patients on peritoneal dialysis.

Patients do have to pay for things like some medications and home haemodialysis patients usually also pay for the extra power and water needed to run the machine and to keep them warm during dialysis. Some District Health Boards contribute some money to the cost of power and water.

(from http://www.kidneysociety.co.nz/about-us/frequently-asked-que...).

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#132
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's pretty crappy in NC. First year of ACA we only had one company even offering any insurance in my county. And yeah, it's county-based for some reason - if I lived 2 miles in another direction I'd have had multiple options about 10-15% cheaper than what I had available. Second year we had another option in our county which was about 15% higher than BCBS (which had gone up about 25% from the year before). App…

> Yeah, it's pretty crappy in NC. That's because your state is run by people who want desperately for the ACA to fail, and so they are intentionally making it as crappy as they can.

For comparison, my state's ACA plan is the same as Medicaid (several choices of insurance providers and I believe no cost for prescriptions).

The more surprising part was our Republican Governor was the one that advocated for it and pushed it through the party line (with a lot of grumbling). His argument was it would save the state quite a bit of money and so far I believe it has.

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal experience with nearly all health care insurance plans since the 90's: Each year the premiums go up, the out of pocket costs increase, and benefits decrease (beyond more than general inflation).

I understand premiums going up annually. I don't understand 30-50% increases year on year.

It's was pretty easy to predict: allowing enrollment after a diagnosis was politically popular but a terrible economic disincentive to not buy insurance (because at that point, it isn't insurance -- it's a subscription plan for your treatments).

The young and healthy needed to enroll for the economics to work, but the individual mandate was delayed for years -- because coercion isn't popular politically, and there was a reelection to win in 2012. Without the coercion, why would a 20-something buy insurance?

So begins the death spiral. The only thing that can save it is very high penalties for failing to get insurance on the individual marketplace. This would be politically disastrous -- "we know the plans are expensive, but it will be even more expensive to not get one!" isn't a great selling point.

It's not only that you have to pay up so that others may wait until they're sick -- you have to buy a plan that covers things you don't need. I have to pay for all sorts of treatments I'll never use -- addiction counseling, prenatal care (I'm a man), etc. -- because it was considered unfair that I should pay less for consuming less (why this argument doesn't transfer to auto insurance, where men pay higher rates, I don't know).

I know liberals are going to argue "that's why you need to take the market out of it and have single payer." It's a consistent argument only if you believe that you'd be better off with single payer. Some people would be; I know I wouldn't be. I'd end up paying even more for everyone else who isn't paying.

But, politically, that's dead on arrival. Democrats just voted to abolish the cadillac tax. Everyone knows the ACA is an albatross on the Democrats' neck. The sorts of anecdotes in this thread are all over the place. "We just didn't go far enough, try single payer" is not going to win the day anytime soon.

If a Republican wins the presidency, we'll see a full repeal of the entire thing (Dems will not filibuster if they know what's good for them). If a Democrat wins, we'll see gradual repeal, marketed as tweaks and improvements.

Personally, I'm fine with a strong subsidized public option for the truly indigent (oh wait, I just invented Medicare). After that, let the market bring costs down by removing regulations. It's no coincidence that laser eye surgery, teeth whitening, cosmetic surgery is all generally affordable -- markets and competition have formed.

A good market would be one where you paid your doctor out of pocket for recurring, predictable costs and then bought insurance from a private company in order to guard against unforeseen catastrophes -- kind of like how your auto insurance policy doesn't pay for oil changes and car washes.

And what if someone is irresponsible and didn't qualify for Medicare but also didn't buy insurance? What happens if they get cancer? I hope they have family and friends to bail them out. It would be great for charities to lend a hand. I don't think the role of government is to take care of you, because it isn't the government taking care of you. It's the government coercing others to take care of you, against their will. It is not charitable to hold a doctor at gunpoint and force him to perform a surgery. So for everyone who believes that healthcare is a "right," I expect that you're freely giving away your excess time and money away? Or do you just expect others to?

I'm already paying someone else's medical bills -- I can calculate how much I give to Medicare each year, it's more than enough for someone else in this country to see a doctor for the entire year. I'm also paying way more than I should for my family's insurance plan because I'm indirectly subsidizing others. I wonder how many people are getting free healthcare on my dime, and what excuses they have for not being able to afford it on their own. I'm a little tired of being told how great it would be if I just paid a little more and others paid a little less.

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#134
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the fixation on "everyone should have good health insurance" is making this dysfunctional situation permanently unfixable. Nah. Every citizen should have good health insurance that requires no out-of-pocket expenditures. There should be one plan, available to every citizen. There should be one payer, the Federal Government. Anything else is a recipe for price-gouging and ballooning costs.

And what will happen is you will not get much health care. Certainly much less than you got in 2005, for much more than you paid in 2005. Insurers routinely pay out over %100 of premiums in claims. Meanwhile government programs with benefits- like welfare- blow %75 of their budget on overhead and only pay out %25. Economics is like physics. You can wish it wasn't so. You can look at optical illusions, but the reality…

> government programs with benefits- like welfare- blow %75 of their budget on overhead and only pay out %25

That's hard to believe. Source?

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#135
post #19

In Australia the penalty is 1% of your income (or more) https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Medicare-levy/Medicare-le... This makes it a no-brainer for anyone earning over ~$90k to get health insurance (as it's cheaper than not having it). Yet it doesn't force low income earners into having private health insurance: they fall through to the safety net of the public healthcare system. It's not a perfect solution; but i…

> perhaps slightly better than what the USA has at the moment? Pretty much anything would be. Health care in Italy was better than in the US, and that's saying something - Italy is a nice place, but not always run that well. A more market-based system might be better too as at least for some things there might be some downward pressure on prices. The current system (including pre-Obamacare in that as well) just sucks…

When the WHO ranked the world's health care systems in 2000, Italy was actually the second best in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_rank...

That was 16 years ago, yes, but the country wasn't run any better than it is now.

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#136
post #118

Every time I see one of these articles (or anything related to US healthcare) and read the comments, I can't help but ask myself how rotten a country can be. In this case, as a German, I dare say "rotten to the core". It apparently is impossible to move the US healthcare system to a system where every person in the US is eligible to even the most expensive emergency healthcare without having to fear bankruptcy afterw…

Yeah, the vast majority of us have healthcare, aren't really sick, and occasionally when we do get really sick, our insurance pays the bills. I had an emergency root canal earlier last year in the US, cost me zero dollars, and I've got one of those high-deductible plans (it's the HSA that covered that). I'm actually a little surprised you (or anyone on HN) are so eager to jump at the "worst case" stories and presume…

This is a joke post, right?

You're really going to ignore all of the literature on how shitty the US healthcare system is and try to dismiss the completely awful treatment of the poor and underinsured as a "anecdote"? Shit, or even just the unlucky. Do you know how many IndieGoGo's I've seen for people who sounded just like you until they had a moment of bad luck and re-examined their policy that changed in the last 5 months?

All at a higher cost than other nations that beat us in every possible measure of healthcare (Except maybe overhead cost as a percentage).

Wow. Freakin wow. I wish I could be so naive/privileged/ignorant.

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the fixation on "everyone should have good health insurance" is making this dysfunctional situation permanently unfixable. Nah. Every citizen should have good health insurance that requires no out-of-pocket expenditures. There should be one plan, available to every citizen. There should be one payer, the Federal Government. Anything else is a recipe for price-gouging and ballooning costs.

but see, that's not "insurance"

With the exception of catastrophic coverage plans, neither is what we call "health insurance" in the US. :)

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#138
post #33

The plans have been a disaster. They got rid of the only plan that makes sense for young people: Catastrophic insurance (deductible of over $10,000). The plans that remain have high enough deductibles to be worthless, but low enough to be expensive. The plans helps almost nobody. The only people who gain value from the exchanges are those who get a subsidy. To make things worse insurance companies are pulling out in…

To me as someone living in the UK, this is bizarre. Why would you need an deductables at all for it not to be expensive? This in itself indicates that your entire healthcare sector is entirely dysfunctional.

In 2013/2014, the UK National Health Service spent $2928/year per person.

This is the average, and includes everything from the costs of births to the costs of expensive heart transplants or cancer treatments. General practitioners. Specialists. Hospitals. Ambulance services. Subsidized prescriptions (in England there are prescription charges of 7 pounds per prescription; in Scotland and Wales prescriptions are covered by the devolved governments).

Since I moved here 15 years ago, I've been to A&E (accompanying my ex) and hospitals (same) several times; I've had a son; I've been to the doctors many times. The care has been excellent, and fast. We've never had to fill in a single form that is not purely medically motivated. Never had to take out my wallet other than the occasional few coins for a prescriptions (I'm Norwegian, and while Norway also has an excellent socialized healthcare system, being able to just walk straight out without going to reception to pay after seeing the doctor was a novelty to me too - things like general doctors visits carry a low co-pay in Norway). Best spent $2928 I could make.

Where is all this money going in the US? Surely someone, somewhere is making ridiculous profits that must have investors drooling and looking for contenders.

The US welfare system, or lack of one, is one of the reasons I'd never consider moving to the US. It seems so totally barbaric and arbitrary.

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#139
post #116
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason nobody could sell you insurance with your pre-existing condition before is that regulations prevented making plans for conditions. EG: You couldn't make a national diabetes insurance plan for people with diabetes (and the economies of scale that go along with a pool of all people with diabetes) because it was effectively illegal. If the ACA had merely fixed that, then your premiums would be going down more…

You know what? My pre-existing condition was that I'd had my gallbladder removed in the early 2000s. That's it. Uninsurable for 10 years because of an operation which I recovered from fully in less than a week. Telling me it's "regulations" that had every insurer reject me? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

My preexisting condition was "history of headache". I was denied by every insurer that did business in our state in 2010 and 2011. I wish I was kidding. Had I failed to mention the headache thing and sought treatment, I would have been vulnerable to rescission.

Re: Many See I.R.S. Penalties as More Affordable Than Health Insurance

#140
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the fixation on "everyone should have good health insurance" is making this dysfunctional situation permanently unfixable. Nah. Every citizen should have good health insurance that requires no out-of-pocket expenditures. There should be one plan, available to every citizen. There should be one payer, the Federal Government. Anything else is a recipe for price-gouging and ballooning costs.

And what will happen is you will not get much health care. Certainly much less than you got in 2005, for much more than you paid in 2005. Insurers routinely pay out over %100 of premiums in claims. Meanwhile government programs with benefits- like welfare- blow %75 of their budget on overhead and only pay out %25. Economics is like physics. You can wish it wasn't so. You can look at optical illusions, but the reality…

> And what will happen is you will not get much health care. Certainly much less than you got in 2005, for much more than you paid in 2005.

Other countries that have single-payer universal coverage have much better care, and absurdly better quality-of-outcome-per-dollar-spent than the US.

Also, I'm nth-ing dmitriy_ko's request for a citation... along with a request for a quote on the actual overhead-vs-payout ratio of private-sector "health insurance" companies. (Make sure to parse those reports very finely... as we've certainly learned from the creative ways that the Intelligence Community has lied to Congress, the DoJ, and the American public, there are many ways to make a statement that is strictly true, but so misleading that it might as well be a bald-faced lie.)

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