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Is there any point to the 12 times table?

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Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#51
post #11

Twelve has more divisors than ten (1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 12 vs 1, 2, 5 & 10). If we were really smart, we'd switch from base 10 to base 12: many more 'decimals' (really duodecimals) would be non-repeating. One can very quickly count by twelves on the joints of one's fingers, using the thumb as an index (0-143 is a much larger range than 0-10, and it's easier to hold one's hands in the shape necessary). If we were really sm…

>> If we were really smart, we'd switch from base 10 to base 12

But I only have 10 fingers!

On a practical note, wouldn't that mean inventing 2 new symbols to represent 10 and 11 as single digits, otherwise I could see that getting very confusing.

You could't really use A and B, as then some people would be unable to find the correct seat on an airplane.

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#52
post #21

Only in non-metric countries. Back in the British era of pounds, shillings, and pence, hardware had to be built to do arithmetic in that system. This resulted in one of the strangest, and most complex, purely mechanical computing devices ever built - the McClure Multiplying Punch [1], from Powers-Samas. This device came out in 1938. The comparable IBM machine was the IBM 602 Multiplying Punch, but IBM only did decima…

The author is arguing in the context of UK post decimalization of units.

Thanks for additional info on the machinery involved.

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#53
post #3

I recently worked with a person who had to do her three times table using her hands, starting from 3. She would still struggle at about 6 or 7 times. We worked behind the counter in a builder's merchant. She is no longer working for us.

Due to some airline delays, I was trying to schedule a new flight. I ended up showing a boarding pass to an attendant at the booth and asking something along the lines of "I'd like to make this connection". The ticket said departure "22.17". She asked me "What's that in `real` time?".

Two more from the garden center:

I was looking for a pump for an ornamental pond, and the pumps were advertised by the amount of gallons of water they displaced per hour. I didn't know the conversion between ft3 and gallons and I didn't have my phone so I couldn't look it up. I told one of the attendants my pond was about 60 cube feet, and asked if she could help me look up how much gallons that was. She said; "I don't do numbers like that. The only numbers I know how to count is money wink". Weird. I tried to explain; all I need is the conversion factor. To no avail. I just ended up buying the biggest one. My neighbors complimented me on how soothing that burbling water is when they go to bed. Passive aggressive jerks :)

I wanted some dirt delivered for a raised flower bed. I needed about 30 cube feet. The voice on the phone told me they only deliver by the scoop (from that big shovel on their bulldozer). Fair enough, but I asked if he had more or less an idea how large such a scoop was, in some unit I could understand, since I didn't want to end up with too much dirt. He was pretty curt in his response; "We're not going to start do that, all those units and measurements, we only do scoops". Wait what, like, how do landscape architects do this? Are scoops a thing?

I asked people if it was unreasonable to expect more in each situation. Most of them were along the lines; "yes, you're being obnoxious, just get the damn scoops".

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#55
There is some use in knowing subsets of the time tables beyond 9: specifically M x N combinations For instance, if you know that 8x12 = 96, you know that 1/12 is approximately 0.08. And since 0.96/12 is exactly 0.08, you know that the remainder is 0.04/12 which gives you the .003333... in 0.0833333...

Essentially, it supports numeric intuition.

These higher times tables can be useful in long division. In long division you have to form hypotheses about how many times the divisor goes into the partial dividend, to extract the next digit of the partial quotient. So for instance, something like this comes up:

      ________ 
  12 | 980
Now 12 doesn't go into 9, so we try 98. How many times does 12 go into 98? If you know your 12x12 times table by rote, you might realize in a flash that 12x8 is 96, so put down an 8.

If you memorized all times tables up to 99, you could so long multiplication in base 100:

       1234
       4567
       ----
You would instantly know that 67 x 34 is 2278, so ... put down the 78 and carry the 22:

       1234
       4567
       ----
       22
         78
and then 67 x 12 is 804. Bring down the 22 into it and we get 826:

       1234
       4567
       ----
      82678
Damn, that was fast! :) Then we keep going with the 45 similarly: and we can move by two places to the left. 45 x 34 = 1530; put down 30; carry 15:

       1234
       4567
       ----
      82678
     15
       30
and then 45 x 12 = 540, plus carry is 555:

       1234
       4567
       ----
      82678
    55530
    -------
    5635678
 
Totally awesome, and we only had to memorize 4950 product combinations from 1x1 to 99x99. Contrast that with plodding through it one digit at a time, with four partial product rows to then add together.

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

decimals cause huge problems for computers. How do you represent 0.6 as a floating point? In the long run, the correct solution is for everything to be binary.

This one I'm entirely unconvinced of. It is easier for the computer to adapt to us, rather than vice versa. And over time things get easier and easier for the computer, while staying the same for us. Which is why over time we wind up interacting with computers in ways that are more and more adapted to us rather than them. We already have acceptably good algorithms to convert to/from different representations, and rou…

you can't use exact fraction arithmetic to take a square root, which comes up, you know, just a little bit, in physics. Of course this is a problem for binary representations, too, but you might as well not start out with an input that is already imprecise.

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#57
There's lots of questions thrown up by this. If people need to know times tables, do they also need to know powers of 2? They come up quite often if you deal with computers. What about squares? Anyone doing polynomials later on will be using them constantly.

My sense is you will end up memorising the things that come up anyway, so why be so strict? You'll end up teaching kids that math is a memory game.

So for fun, what do I remember, off the top?

210 = 1024. Anything higher I keep doubling.

132 = 169, biggest non derived square in my head. 1 more than 7 * 24 (hours in a week).

86400 = secs in a day?

Large prime number... 10243 (Useful for demonstrating Diffie Hellman on paper)

Ramanujan's Cab... argh... is it 1729?

3.14159 (Guess I'm not winning any contests)

2.71 (See above)

6E23

Add your own random numbers that are in your head.

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#59
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense..until you talk about time. Time makes no sense.

If you want to terrify an american, ask them about switching to metric time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_time This comes up all the time for me as americans use a different date format. I've had contract negotiations grind to a halt because someone was doing math based on 06/05/15 rather than 05/06/15.

Use something like 12/24/48 (US) or 48/12/24 (UK) if you want to "force" compliance, then you'll at least have an easy sanity check for each field.

The other benefit is you can check Y2038 compliance at the same time, but you should at least specify 4-digit years for whatever you're spec'ing, so you don't create the next Y2K.

Re: Is there any point to the 12 times table?

#60
post #43

It's really not a big deal for a child to memorize this table. I also think memorizing the squares up to 25 is worth it.

If we ignore that it takes "144 facts" compared to "100 facts" for a 10 times table, and take it as a single item of learning, it may not be a big deal.

The problem is that it's not the only piece of distracting trivia that is heaped on students as something they should know that likely holds little consequence to achieving big picture learning goals like critical thinking and better math skills. A more American example would be memorizing the capital cities of every US state, along with other state trivia.

Memorizing things like the state capitals just gives the illusion of education, but is actually a waste of educational resources and learning time.

Time, along with the attention span of a child, is a scarce resource. It's good to trim the curriculum when we identify information that has weak relative value, and it's too easy to find something else to replace it.

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