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How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

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Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#171
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's what they do! The ultrarich of the world can live handsomely off the interest of their fortunes and don't ever have to touch the principal, which just grows and grows.

That money still goes somewhere. You don't get interest by keeping money under your mattress. You get interest by loaning it out, or the value of something you own increasing. And even if you've "bought" something that appreciates in value, you've anyways lost the physical money which is now being spent by someone else. Which is almost the same scenario as the one you suggested. So ultimately, it seems your complaint…

If I keep a million dollars in the bank, the bank can loan out a million dollars, and I earn interest.

If I spent half of that million dollars, then whoever got paid likely puts the money back in the bank and the bank can still loan out a million dollars.

This is in a nutshell why trickle-down economics don't work.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#172
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many Zuckerbergs, Gates, Brins, Pages and Bezos are we missing out on due to the fact that huge swaths of our country do not have the ability to fully explore and develop their talents? But this has nothing to do with inequality. It has to do with "too many people below economic level X". If this seems related to inequality it's because you've already bought into the pie fallacy.

No, it has nothing to do with the pie fallacy. Yes, even the poorest in America lead better lives in absolute terms than most people have throughout history. But regardless of the absolute "economic level x" of the poorest, the wealthiest among us will enjoy disproportionate access to the latest technology, education, healthcare, influence etc.

But why does it seem that the solution is to cap off from those who have more instead of improving the lot of those who have less?

There's the pie fallacy: it would seem that alleviating poverty = alleviating inequality, when for most of history it has been exactly the opposite.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we set a maximum wage, driven people would simply move to another country. There is plenty of evidence for that as well. The Beatles, for example, came to America to avoid the grievous taxes being levied in England. U.S. companies locate offices in more tax-friendly locales all the time too.

> "There is plenty of evidence for that as well." Okay, can you show me some evidence? > "The Beatles, for example, came to America to avoid the grievous taxes being levied in England. U.S. companies locate offices in more tax-friendly locales all the time too." Both of those are examples of tax dodges. Maximum wage is different, in that people would be required to live in the country they made their main income in.…

What difference does that make, ZenoArrow? Regardless of whether it is oppressive taxes or corrupt government meddling in the rewards of labor, if you steal what rightfully belongs to someone under the guise of "making things fair," those who can will leave.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing basic principles of economics. Your arbitrary cap on income would move companies and jobs to countries free of weird policies like that.

If old companies move, new companies would spring up to take their place. The reason this would happen is because the demand is still there. People don't stop buying clothes just because a clothes shop stops trading in their country.

Why would they? If you knew that the potential rewards for a given business risk would be stolen from you via the government, why would you bother taking the risk in the first place?

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also come from a previously communist country and I disagree. The world isn't so black and white. Progressive taxation is not equivalent to a centrally planned economic system. I've had state owned utilities and privately owned utilities, and I absolutely prefer the one that is subsidized by taxes and answers to voters. There's a huge difference between that and having state-chosen academia in Moscow decide how muc…

The US already has the one of the highest corporate tax rate in the world and the wealthy pay the majority of taxes. There is no inequality here. We shouldn't de-incentivize prosperity. We need to create more tax payers, not less (or the whole system will collapse). Larger safety-nets will not create this incentive. If it did, we would see many more startup and technology companies in nordic countries. Instead, we se…

Yet the rate is a fraction of what it was 30+ years ago. While the wealthy may pay the "majority" of taxes, I thought it was common knowledge that the uber wealthy pay proportionately less of their income in taxes then the lower and middle class -- which is inequality defined.

I mainly just don't believe in vagina lotteries

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing happens if someone gets rich and sticks their money anywhere but under their mattress.

But that's what they do! The ultrarich of the world can live handsomely off the interest of their fortunes and don't ever have to touch the principal, which just grows and grows.

Families this rich are not just static forever, they usually have lots of ventures and businesses that are contributing to their wealth. They are well invested, but that's not the only thing.

They also do spend and consume a very high amount and there is the inevitable dilution through the generations as families grow and each person uses their fortune in a different way.

There are plenty of ultrarich who are no longer.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#178
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US already has the one of the highest corporate tax rate in the world and the wealthy pay the majority of taxes. There is no inequality here. We shouldn't de-incentivize prosperity. We need to create more tax payers, not less (or the whole system will collapse). Larger safety-nets will not create this incentive. If it did, we would see many more startup and technology companies in nordic countries. Instead, we se…

Yet the rate is a fraction of what it was 30+ years ago. While the wealthy may pay the "majority" of taxes, I thought it was common knowledge that the uber wealthy pay proportionately less of their income in taxes then the lower and middle class -- which is inequality defined. I mainly just don't believe in vagina lotteries

"Yet the rate is a fraction of what it was 30+ years ago"

...yet the US is now the most prosperous nation on earth and our poor still have cell phones, a basic roof over their heads, and aren't eating rocks in the dirt.

A 90% marginal tax rate (like it was 30+ years ago) won't be all rainbows and kittens. It will be a very, very different US. 'Startup' probably won't even be a word any longer if this happened.

"I thought it was common knowledge that the uber wealthy pay proportionately less of their income in taxes then the lower and middle class"

More misinformation. The lower classes pay almost no income/state/federal taxes. I was unemployed for a year back in 2010, and I actually got money back when I filed my taxes based on my low income...and I never had any taxes deducted from my unemployment.

The 'uber wealthy' pay more in taxes than they will ever use in their lifetime..and probably 10,000 or more people's lifetime.

Not to mention they pay people in the form of income, which is then paid back to the government in the form of taxes. They are indirectly paying a ton more in taxes. The poor and middle class do no such thing.

Instead of focusing on how much more money we can appropriate from the wealthy, we should first be making politicians and governments accountable for the money we are paying into the system now. Without this accountability, we will continue to run out of money.

Detroit local government is a great example of this. Rampant corruption keeps causing a budget crises and the city council act like petulant children when asked for even the slightest bit of accountability.

"I mainly just don't believe in vagina lotteries"

There are many unfair "vagina lotteries". Should we open up NBA teams to people that don't have natural abilities or make them play with a handicap?

I will never be able to play for the NBA because I'm not tall enough. Should the NBA pay their "fair share" by being forced to allow me to play? Do those players really deserve all that money?

If I worked my entire life to build a business, so my kids can have a nice life..I shouldn't be punished.

I will be curious to see how many people in silicon valley can afford their same lifestyle when their inflated wages are cut by 40% and rent and expenses stay the same.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#179
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how estate and capital gains taxes are regressive. Estate taxes (in the United States at least) only kick in on inherited assets > $5M or so ( When I think regressive taxes, I think things that are flat fees, or else things like fica, which cut out after a certain income.

Regressive in the general sense--privileging those who already have access to wealth. The long term capital gains rate is a good example.

They are progressive by their implementations, and by the definition of the word progressive.

What it sounds like you are trying to say is that it's not "progressive" enough for your liking. And then you turn the definitions upside down and label it "regressive".

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#180
> Bill Gates gave an excellent summary of the argument against unchecked levels of economic inequality[2]: High levels of inequality are a problem — messing up economic incentives, tilting democracies in favor of powerful interests, and undercutting the ideal that all people are created equal.

This is the problem right here. The "ideal that all people are created equal." The truth is, they are not. There are differences in IQ, differences in emotional capacity, differences in physical strength, differences in programming ability, etc. Because every human has a unique set of DNA -- that will only ever occur once and never again be repeated -- they will have unique combinations of various skills and traits.

People are not equal and you cannot make them so. Thus they will have different outcomes economically. It couldn't be any other way.

What you can do is provide equal opportunities to those with objectively worse environments, i.e. those in poverty. Attacking this problem will be the most meaningful solution. But economic inequality is still not the yard stick to use for this.

How these obvious issues get conflated through the use of the trigger term "economic inequality" is beyond me. Perhaps it stems from the self-esteem movement where we started giving trophies to every kid who could kick the ball. Do people complain about "soccer inequality" because they don't play on FC Barcelona? And should one blame Messi for such a thing, or should they find ways to sponsor youth soccer leagues instead.

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