Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk • Hacker News Board

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#11

Post by David » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 6:19 AM UTC

aryehof wrote: post #9

bluedino wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> On the other hand, I have to question the necessity of a custom ERP and the cost and effort put into it. I can't imagine why anyone would, either. I've seen companies spend 2X the cost of a new ERP system that would solve all of their problems on customizations and additions to an existing, outdated ERP system. What do they end up with? Solutions that are incomplete, unreliable, and late to the game.

Every business is unique, and a custom solution can support that uniqueness, rather than the compromises that can need to be made with a (customizable) packaged solution. I've seen one company write off a 100 million dollar investment in a Peoplesoft based replacement for a custom system, because it was realized that the compromises that solution required were becoming too great. Sure it was fabulous for 80% of requi…

Absolutely, if you have the budget to build, maintain, and support a custom ERP, it may be the way to go. But I think it's a tiny fraction of businesses where the benefits of that outweigh the extra costs involved. You have to be very large, and your issues with existing systems have to be pretty expensive, before that's the case.

Out of curiosity, do you know / can you share what kinds of problems caused the Peoplesoft investment to fall apart? What issues did they run into?

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#12

Post by plinkplonk » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 7:45 AM UTC

Last I looked Visual Works smalltalk had weird license schemes that involved perpetual royalties [1]. When I used to work in business/enterprise software (no longer, thank FSM) this was an instant deal killer, especially for small businesses.

Any information on how this was dealt with on this project would be greatly appreciated.

[1] http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/products/pricing/

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#13

Post by SixSigma » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 9:35 AM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #3

David wrote: post #2

Working on an ERP startup^, this was a very interesting read for me. Our situation is a little different, because our goal is a customizable platform rather than a single instance built for a single company. Some points that resonated with me: Pay your technical debt early : Cleaning up after yourself as soon as it becomes apparent you've made a mess is huge. The most painful parts of our application to use and to mo…

>> On the other hand, I have to question the necessity of a custom ERP and the cost and effort put into it. I can't imagine why anyone would, either. I've seen companies spend 2X the cost of a new ERP system that would solve all of their problems on customizations and additions to an existing, outdated ERP system. What do they end up with? Solutions that are incomplete, unreliable, and late to the game.

ERP is a tricky business.

10 Famous ERP Disasters, Dustups and Disappointments

http://www.cio.com/article/2429865/enterprise-resource-plann...

ERP Nightmare: Implementations Gone Awry

http://www.business-software.com/blog/erp-nightmare-implemen...

CIOs' next nightmare: legacy ERP

http://www.zdnet.com/article/cios-next-nightmare-legacy-erp/

10 ways to avoid an enterprise resource planning nightmare

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/how-to/technology/201...

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#14

Post by im_down_w_otp » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #3

David wrote: post #2

Working on an ERP startup^, this was a very interesting read for me. Our situation is a little different, because our goal is a customizable platform rather than a single instance built for a single company. Some points that resonated with me: Pay your technical debt early : Cleaning up after yourself as soon as it becomes apparent you've made a mess is huge. The most painful parts of our application to use and to mo…

>> On the other hand, I have to question the necessity of a custom ERP and the cost and effort put into it. I can't imagine why anyone would, either. I've seen companies spend 2X the cost of a new ERP system that would solve all of their problems on customizations and additions to an existing, outdated ERP system. What do they end up with? Solutions that are incomplete, unreliable, and late to the game.

It's because almost every business believes it's a special snowflake, and thus by extension so are its technology & process problems. Given that there's almost always somebody willing to sell them a custom solution who wants to make money reinforcing that delusion. It's not all that surprising that many, many non-tech or tangentially-tech markets end up saddled with a pile of proprietary hacked together garbage software and systems.

It's shockingly rare to encounter a Principal, CEO, or COO who goes into every business problem they have with a perspective like, "I know we're not an R&D company, so almost certainly our problems aren't pioneering efforts into the unknown frontier. Somebody must have encountered these issues before, so how can I capitalize on the fact that they must have already spent the money to resolve them?"

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#15

Post by osullivj » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 10:41 AM UTC

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #14

bluedino wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> On the other hand, I have to question the necessity of a custom ERP and the cost and effort put into it. I can't imagine why anyone would, either. I've seen companies spend 2X the cost of a new ERP system that would solve all of their problems on customizations and additions to an existing, outdated ERP system. What do they end up with? Solutions that are incomplete, unreliable, and late to the game.

It's because almost every business believes it's a special snowflake, and thus by extension so are its technology & process problems. Given that there's almost always somebody willing to sell them a custom solution who wants to make money reinforcing that delusion. It's not all that surprising that many, many non-tech or tangentially-tech markets end up saddled with a pile of proprietary hacked together garbage softw…

Historically, this has been especially true in investment banking, where every department, desk even, believes it's a special snowflake, and commissions their own solutions. High profitability exacerbated this. Increased regulation means lower margins, and proprietary solutions are declining.

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#16

Post by cafard » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #3

David wrote: post #2

Working on an ERP startup^, this was a very interesting read for me. Our situation is a little different, because our goal is a customizable platform rather than a single instance built for a single company. Some points that resonated with me: Pay your technical debt early : Cleaning up after yourself as soon as it becomes apparent you've made a mess is huge. The most painful parts of our application to use and to mo…

>> On the other hand, I have to question the necessity of a custom ERP and the cost and effort put into it. I can't imagine why anyone would, either. I've seen companies spend 2X the cost of a new ERP system that would solve all of their problems on customizations and additions to an existing, outdated ERP system. What do they end up with? Solutions that are incomplete, unreliable, and late to the game.

Would the new ERP system solve all their problems without customizations and additions?

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#17

Post by cafard » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

aryehof wrote: post #9

bluedino wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> On the other hand, I have to question the necessity of a custom ERP and the cost and effort put into it. I can't imagine why anyone would, either. I've seen companies spend 2X the cost of a new ERP system that would solve all of their problems on customizations and additions to an existing, outdated ERP system. What do they end up with? Solutions that are incomplete, unreliable, and late to the game.

Every business is unique, and a custom solution can support that uniqueness, rather than the compromises that can need to be made with a (customizable) packaged solution. I've seen one company write off a 100 million dollar investment in a Peoplesoft based replacement for a custom system, because it was realized that the compromises that solution required were becoming too great. Sure it was fabulous for 80% of requi…

The District of Columbia Public Schools burned what must have been tens of millions on a Peoplesoft implementation some years ago. I guess they eventually got it running, but there was a lot of pain.

[Edit: I'm not sure DCPS was the part of the district government that felt the most pain.]

Re: Lessons Learned – Custom ERP in Smalltalk

#18

Post by igouy » Mon, Jan 04, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

plinkplonk wrote: post #12

Last I looked Visual Works smalltalk had weird license schemes that involved perpetual royalties [1]. When I used to work in business/enterprise software (no longer, thank FSM) this was an instant deal killer, especially for small businesses. Any information on how this was dealt with on this project would be greatly appreciated. [1] http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/products/pricing/

afaict this custom ERP would fall into "Companies that plan to use Cincom Smalltalk for developing applications for use within their own corporation" -- so your question does not apply to this case.