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Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#31

Post by danharaj »

logicchains wrote: post #22
danharaj wrote: post #2

Well, gee, I don't know! What part of "sit in this room for 8 hours a day until we cut the umbilical cord, then get a job and contribute to society so that you can afford to live and maybe retire one day. because otherwise you are human garbage." sounds like it supports mental health? How many people will quickly blame social media, or adults paying too much attention to children's emotional needs for ruining our chi…

>What part of "sit in this room for 8 hours a day until we cut the umbilical cord, then get a job and contribute to society so that you can afford to live and maybe retire one day. because otherwise you are human garbage." I think the expectation that "people should be good to me just because I was born" lies at the root of much distress. Reality can be harsh: if you don't have anything to offer them, most people don…

> I think the expectation that "people should be good to me just because I was born" lies at the root of much distress. Reality can be harsh: if you don't have anything to offer them, most people don't care much about you.

I think your first sentence is either logically vacuous or a sneaky way to disregard someone's emotions: Either you are stating that "feeling mistreated is the same as existing and feeling mistreated" or your clause "just because I was born" is putting words in this abstract person's mouth: "I feel mistreated but I am unjustified in feeling mistreated."

Like, your ideas are logically consistent: If you don't feel mistreated then you don't feel mistreated. If you can just stop feeling mistreated then you will be liberated from feeling mistreated. It completely sidesteps the issue: People feel mistreated for a reason.

Why not apply this logic to everything? "Just because I was born, people shouldn't saw off my leg at the knee". The gall of such entitlement! If only one adjusted to the viewpoint that their leg should be sawed off at the knee, they would have a much easier time! Does it sound absurd because I am exaggerating? I'm not really exaggerating that much: depression and anxiety can hurt so much that they drive people to kill themselves. How could such illness be anything but agonizing?

You call it reality, but it is not indifferent and impersonal like disease or a storm that sweeps one's home away: We are talking about people. People are intelligible to people. People are answerable people. People interacting with people changes the way people interact with people.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#32

Post by littletimmy »

It is not just the drive for success; it is the entire culture in general. The system is built to reduce happiness, because a happy and content person has less impetus to contribute to the economy. This is actually very intentional; see for example Alan Greenspan's speech to Congress: when he was questioned about job insecurity among the population, he replied that it was a good thing because it made people work harder.

On the other hand, the ideal person for the economy (on average, forgetting outliers like inventors) is a psychopath with a penchant for conspicuous consumption. Such a person is geographically mobile, able to dedicate his life to attaining wealth and power, and is also incapable of happiness. The normal among us, unfortunately, have to try live up to that ideal. Therefore, you see people spending very little time with their families, trying to earn more and more just to satisfy their need to consume. That is stressful! This is a form of mental sickness.

YES. The system we live in is sick.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#33

Post by nitrogen »

ZoF wrote: post #25
trentmb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely a first world problem I don't understand this statement. Doesn't this mean it's a problem every developing nation will eventually face? Wouldn't it be nice to have already figured out a solution by then?

Yeah it would be great to have nuclear fusion figured out as well wouldn't it...? What was your point here?

Probably that dismissing real problems with the pejorative "first world problem" is counterproductive, especially when we do it to ourselves.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#34

Post by branchless »

atomicfiredoll wrote: post #10

I can't help but feel like this is the inevitable conclusion for a society that's obsessed with working and financial success. It could be an interesting premise to explore. When a number of employers and the government don't value ensuring a healthy work/life balance, or even employee's health, how do you keep that same behavior out of the minds of people running school systems and classrooms? How do you ensure you…

The reason the system wants you to work hard is because they get a share of your labour for every part you are successful above subsistence.

They get this through debt issuance, primarily via land prices. Fiat money costs absolutely zero to produce, they give it out freely and in return you pledge to give part of your labour for 30 years.

If land prices were far lower we'd all be working 3 or 4 days a week. Employers wouldn't have enough workers. They'd be paying you most of the value you produce as they bid for you against other firms. And you might not work for them because you no longer have to spend most of your labour on banker tribute for the right to exist.

Land value tax is the answer. It would replace income tax, removing the regressive tax on labour and punishing economic rentiers.

I hope for the sake of my kids we can win this one.

http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm

When people hear about LVT their immediate reaction is "another tax". Realise that it would replace income tax (or at least significantly reduce it at the lower end) and also it would reduce the massive tax via land price ramping.

Right now the banks are getting our tax instead of it being ploughed back into the state, via debt issuance. And producing nothing of value for it.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#35

Post by amelius »

atomicfiredoll wrote: post #10

I can't help but feel like this is the inevitable conclusion for a society that's obsessed with working and financial success. It could be an interesting premise to explore. When a number of employers and the government don't value ensuring a healthy work/life balance, or even employee's health, how do you keep that same behavior out of the minds of people running school systems and classrooms? How do you ensure you…

> I can't help but feel like this is the inevitable conclusion for a society that's obsessed with working and financial success.

It could be different if "success" was actually a well-defined concept, and determined by hard work and intellect. But right now, success seems to follow more from a mix of randomness, networking (which is also partly random), but also from more or less insincere practices, like using charms and underhand business practices, fake-it-until-you-make-it behavior, and so on.

But this shouldn't surprise us, as, even in politics these days, not the person with the best argument wins the debate, but the person who puts the best spin on the topic.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#36

Post by littletimmy »

branchless wrote: post #34
atomicfiredoll wrote: post #10

I can't help but feel like this is the inevitable conclusion for a society that's obsessed with working and financial success. It could be an interesting premise to explore. When a number of employers and the government don't value ensuring a healthy work/life balance, or even employee's health, how do you keep that same behavior out of the minds of people running school systems and classrooms? How do you ensure you…

The reason the system wants you to work hard is because they get a share of your labour for every part you are successful above subsistence. They get this through debt issuance, primarily via land prices. Fiat money costs absolutely zero to produce, they give it out freely and in return you pledge to give part of your labour for 30 years. If land prices were far lower we'd all be working 3 or 4 days a week. Employers…

How do you suggest we modulate land price if not via the current system? How is land tax going to make things any easier? The US already has property tax - you want to raise it?

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#37

Post by barry-cotter »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Based on experiences with highschool reunions and with hard-drug dealers, I feel like children whose lives are "optimized for success" often end up pissing away their "potential," while the second-tier/nice-but-dull children end up having personally fulfilling, materially successful lives. Probably this observation reflects nothing more than a bunch of named fallacies.

Reversion to the mean, having to rely on one's own motivation and conscientiousness instead of an older adults, many othes.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#38

Post by swiley »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Based on experiences with highschool reunions and with hard-drug dealers, I feel like children whose lives are "optimized for success" often end up pissing away their "potential," while the second-tier/nice-but-dull children end up having personally fulfilling, materially successful lives. Probably this observation reflects nothing more than a bunch of named fallacies.

I had to become a failure in the eyes of my parents before I ever started to succeed.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#39

Post by littletimmy »

logicchains wrote: post #22
danharaj wrote: post #2

Well, gee, I don't know! What part of "sit in this room for 8 hours a day until we cut the umbilical cord, then get a job and contribute to society so that you can afford to live and maybe retire one day. because otherwise you are human garbage." sounds like it supports mental health? How many people will quickly blame social media, or adults paying too much attention to children's emotional needs for ruining our chi…

>What part of "sit in this room for 8 hours a day until we cut the umbilical cord, then get a job and contribute to society so that you can afford to live and maybe retire one day. because otherwise you are human garbage." I think the expectation that "people should be good to me just because I was born" lies at the root of much distress. Reality can be harsh: if you don't have anything to offer them, most people don…

I'm with you in not expecting stuff from people, but surely as a human you have a right on earth. Who gave the ones before you the right to own the planet and the right to make you work if you want to live on it?

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#40

Post by swiley »

cetacea wrote: post #20
frutiger wrote: post #8

Betteridge's law of headlines[1] says the answer is "No". 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...

"Who will be the next CEO of Apple?" "No." Someone didn't think this law through...

Obviously it only works on yes or no questions.
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