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How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

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Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#71
post #41
post #30

Coming from a former communist country, I don't understand why smart, capable people want to give away their money to a corrupt, incompetent state to manage it for them. The US is fundamentally different than Nordic countries, where socialism appears to be working: * The Nordic countries are tiny compared to the US. * They are highly educated. * Their society is homogenous. It seems like everybody is assuming that th…

Coming from a former communist country, I don't understand why smart, capable people want to give away their money to a corrupt, incompetent state to manage it for them. Because the state is neither corrupt nor incompetent; this is the big fear of the cyber-selfish libertarians you will find on HN. Tell you what, why don't you start your rant with a list of these rich politicians who will grow even richer. Just a sin…

"Tell you what, why don't you start your rant"

Please don't make personal attacks on Hacker News.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#72
post #38

Is economic inequality a problem in and of itself? Why? Economic quality seems like a red herring for actual issues like how well off people are. Is the actual concern about how poorly off the poor are? Imagine a thought experiment where aliens come to earth and give every human 100x the resources they have currently (or 100x a year's min wage), as an annuity. The poor are all now rich, and the wealthy can buy their…

> But actual people are not harmed or affected directly by some mega-rich person being much richer.

True, but that goes for welfare as well. Someone who is freezing cold does not get colder when someone with 100 blankets gets 100 more.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#73
post #38

Is economic inequality a problem in and of itself? Why? Economic quality seems like a red herring for actual issues like how well off people are. Is the actual concern about how poorly off the poor are? Imagine a thought experiment where aliens come to earth and give every human 100x the resources they have currently (or 100x a year's min wage), as an annuity. The poor are all now rich, and the wealthy can buy their…

>If the problem is about lack of adequate education, opportunities, etc. then let's discuss those concerns directly.

That is a large part of the concern and it is happening because of inequality. Funding for public education gets cut > rich people move towards private education > more education funding gets cut, partially swayed by rich people who have no vested interest in public education > public education gets shittier and shittier > private education becomes leagues ahead of public education > only rich can afford great education > only rich can afford nice jobs.

Things like this happen slowly over decades in all sorts of areas. That is how the middle class in the US has been hallowed out. It's not about the rich becoming richer, it's about the lower and middle classes becoming poorer. And in many cases, though not all, the poor becoming poorer is directly tied to the rich becoming richer.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#74
post #8

As I said last time this came up, the answer is a maximum wage. We can still set the maximum wage beyond the level of most people (e.g. $1,000,000 per annum after tax). I don't see how it would discourage innovation, but I do see how it'd help curb financial inequality.

That's addressing the wrong side of the equation. The problem is phrased as "income inequality", but that's not the actual problem that needs solving (it doesn't necessarily hurt someone for one person to have a billion dollars, unless they use that money to influence policy in ways that harm others). The actual problem, as I see it, or, at least the variable that needs adjusting is the other side. The problem is tha…

> "But, a maximum wage is a ridiculous rebuttal, IMHO."

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but let's look at why a maximum wage can be used to tackle economic inequality, perhaps you'll not think it's quite so ridiculous after that.

> "The actual problem, as I see it, or, at least the variable that needs adjusting is the other side."

The main reason that a maximum wage impacts the poorest amongst us is that it provides a mechanism by which poverty and wealth can be linked.

For example, let's say every US state adopts a $15 per hour minimum wage. Let's now state that the maximum wage is set at 500x the minimum wage, so $7500 per hour. If the minimum wage worker works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, they'll get $31,200 per year (before tax). If the maximum wage worker works the same number of hours they'll earn $15,600,000 (before tax). Let's say the bottom rate of tax is 15%, and the top rate of tax is 40%. What does that leave us with...

The minimum wage worker earned $26,520 a year. The maximum wage worker earned $9,360,000 a year.

What we've set here are upper and lower bounds on how much someone can earn. Notice that we still have the rich and the poor, and we haven't taken away the incentive to want to get rich. What we have done is slowed down the rate at which the gap between the rich and poor grows, which is at the core of economic inequality. Inherited wealth is also an issue, but at least it would tackle the rate of change in newly generated wealth.

What does this do to an economy? First of all, the rich now have an extra incentive to raise the income of the poor. If the rate between the minimum and the maximum wage is fixed, raising the minimum wage will also raise the maximum wage. Secondly, it channels money that is more likely to have been hoarded back into economic activity. Money only works when it is traded, not when it is hoarded, hoarding past a certain level of security is a waste of economic potential.

> "Almost nobody who is poor wants to limit how much money someone can make; it's an irrelevant detail...most poor folks just want an opportunity to escape being poor, themselves."

I'm reminded of this...

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-socialism-never-took-...

Being on the poor end of the spectrum leaves you more vulnerable to economic exploitation. If a maximum wage reduces the incentive for economic exploitation, then I see no reason why it wouldn't be welcomed. If you want a concrete example of economic exploitation, take a look at Walmart:

http://www.alternet.org/labor/ugly-walmart-truth-some-manage...

> "rents are being driven up through a variety of circumstances mostly outside the control of the people those rising rents most impact"

Setting a maximum wage would impact the concentration of resources such as housing. More landlords = more competition = more price stability.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#75
post #30

Coming from a former communist country, I don't understand why smart, capable people want to give away their money to a corrupt, incompetent state to manage it for them. The US is fundamentally different than Nordic countries, where socialism appears to be working: * The Nordic countries are tiny compared to the US. * They are highly educated. * Their society is homogenous. It seems like everybody is assuming that th…

I agree, thinking the politicians can handle anything is naive. Politicians seldom make the situation better, mostly they make it worse while enriching themselves. Socialism don't work in the Nordic countries either. In Denmark where I am from we were in the top 5 richest countries only 60 years ago, before we introduced the Welfare State. Back then we actually had lower taxes than in the US. Since then we have been…

Interesting that the OECD ranks Denmark quite well: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/denmark/

But they specifically call out inequality as an issue:

"..there is a considerable gap between the richest and poorest – the top 20% of the population earn close to four times as much as the bottom 20%"

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#76

It is insane (and also very educational) that so many people are completely missing pg's point - author of this response included. I blame pg a little for using the phrase "income inequality" at all since it seems to be a trigger for many people and shuts down their critical reading and reasoning abilities. Let me try to phrase it in a clearer way. If you focus on reducing "income inequality" then you will reduce inc…

Exactly, and I'm not sure why you're downvoted. PG and the author of this Medium article are basically arguing for the SAME thing. They want policies that allow the poor to have more economic growth opportunity. The main point of contention is the terminology "income inequality."

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#77
post #41
post #30

Coming from a former communist country, I don't understand why smart, capable people want to give away their money to a corrupt, incompetent state to manage it for them. The US is fundamentally different than Nordic countries, where socialism appears to be working: * The Nordic countries are tiny compared to the US. * They are highly educated. * Their society is homogenous. It seems like everybody is assuming that th…

Coming from a former communist country, I don't understand why smart, capable people want to give away their money to a corrupt, incompetent state to manage it for them. Because the state is neither corrupt nor incompetent; this is the big fear of the cyber-selfish libertarians you will find on HN. Tell you what, why don't you start your rant with a list of these rich politicians who will grow even richer. Just a sin…

> Tell you what, why don't you start your rant with a list of these rich politicians who will grow even richer. Just a single name please.

Hillary Clinton.

https://www.rt.com/usa/327689-clinton-conflicts-state-depart...

And BTW grandparent is 100% correct. This is EXACTLY how communism starts. First they come for the people who are rich and successful ...

Throwaway account because it could hurt my career to declare my political views on a public forum in the US if I'm not a liberal.

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#79
Out of curiosity, would it be possible to mitigate most of the perceived negative effects of inequality (unequal access to opportunities) by simply re-allocating our existing tax revenue? For example, instead of paying for costly wars in the US / silly development projects like the F35, could we use that money to grant our citizens free college education, better access to health care under a single payer system, basic welfare, and job training programs? Could we employ an infrastructure development program to put people to work at good wages?

Re: How Paul Graham Gets It Wrong in “Economic Inequality”

#80
post #50
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is always inequality and not absolute wealth, so your hypothetical of everybody having 100x the resources is not fundamentally different than the current situation. The issue is that wealthy people do not have a monopoly on talent, good ideas or intelligence. But they have a monopoly on power and influence. Society therefore suffers when the best ideas do not necessarily compete on an equal basis within the…

Excellent! Thank you for clarifying. It sounds like the concern is that some people hold a monopoly on power, such that good ideas don't compete on their merits. Is that a good way of saying it? I ask because that problem does not seem to me to be directly related to income equality. In communist societies everyone had very similar income, and yet a small group had all the power and functioned as kingmakers in busine…

"In communist societies everyone had very similar income"

I really don't think that was the case. In a practical sense, communist regimes were the extreme endgame of inequality.

Those at the very top of the chain lived like kings, while those at the bottom starved.

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