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Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

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Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#131

Post by kelukelugames »

dang wrote: post #101
kelukelugames wrote: post #2

>So why doesn't Graham recognize and advocate this? Perhaps it's because two of his biggest golden geese — Uber and AirBnB — are actually relying on exactly the kind of political influence I'm calling out here in order to survive and prosper. Whether this is true or not, we need to realize PG has motives. He doesn't write essays just for his health.

It's closer to "for health" than you'd think. If you talked to PG about this I'm sure you'd come away with the same sense. My impression is that he writes essays as a way of thinking and because it makes him happy. Edit: these are representative of talking to him about it: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/676834210976411648 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/680162174648492032

I bet he writes as a way of thinking and it makes him happy. I bet he has biases, leanings, and motives too. Some of them are private or even subconscious.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#132

Post by gizi »

mwcampbell wrote: post #100
gizi wrote: post #80

It can all be reduced to the problem of man-made law. It is wide open to abuse. So, yes, the ultra-rich abuse man-made law to make more money. But then again, machine guns easily overrule money. That is why there are now islamic insurgencies, in 30+ countries, of which the primary purpose is to get rid of man-made law (and to establish their favoured alternative). The problem goes way beyond the distribution of incom…

What alternative to man-made law would you propose?

Scriptural law, for example. Each religion enforces its own law. This solution may not be ideal in every possible respect, but to the extent that it puts a halt to the invention of new man-made laws, it will certainly mitigate the problem. Every man-made law represents a reduction in your freedom with the purpose of serving the interests of someone else. Therefore, I am in favour of any alternative solution that will put a halt to people inventing new laws.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#133

Post by danieltillett »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #125
RodericDay wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zizek phrased it kind of nicely once, in a way that stuck with me. He probably borrowed from somewhere, and I'll continue to lossily reproduce whatever the sentiment was, but it goes something like this. How is it possible that we are completely and utterly optimistic about breaking all sorts of physical barriers, like landing on Mars, and reusing rockets, and communicating worldwide via little handheld microcomputer…

The standard left wing complaint is that billionaires don't have enough lavish parties, but instead reinvest their wealth in new productive capacity. See, e.g., Picketty, Krugman, or anyone favoring stimulus directed at the bottom of the income distribution. Do you dispute this? As for erasing class distinctions, consider the possibility that we already have. Imagine telling a person in 1915 about the world today; th…

I think you are describing the upper middle income rich. The ultra rich are nothing like us in the main.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#134

Post by gnaritas »

puredemo wrote: post #130
gnaritas wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While the current system, at least in the USA, is not perfect, it is still better than other systems tried in other countries. No one said it wasn't. > Things that I would fix is decrease corruption as much as possible. As would I. > What you are advocating is communism. No it isn't, tax reform is not communism, I suggest you bone up on what communism actually is before continuing this conversation, nothing I said…

>You are suffering from the just world fallacy. I think you're projecting. He is saying the world is harsh and unfair, and people need to work hard to mitigate that. That isn't a fallacy.

No, that isn't what he said.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#135

Post by Apocryphon »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #125
RodericDay wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zizek phrased it kind of nicely once, in a way that stuck with me. He probably borrowed from somewhere, and I'll continue to lossily reproduce whatever the sentiment was, but it goes something like this. How is it possible that we are completely and utterly optimistic about breaking all sorts of physical barriers, like landing on Mars, and reusing rockets, and communicating worldwide via little handheld microcomputer…

The standard left wing complaint is that billionaires don't have enough lavish parties, but instead reinvest their wealth in new productive capacity. See, e.g., Picketty, Krugman, or anyone favoring stimulus directed at the bottom of the income distribution. Do you dispute this? As for erasing class distinctions, consider the possibility that we already have. Imagine telling a person in 1915 about the world today; th…

It's not enough, just as going to the Moon was not enough.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#136

Post by imbellish »

loki49152 wrote: post #121
MrTonyD wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me years to realize that economics isn't physics - and it isn't ruled by physics-like laws. Instead, economics is governed by laws created by our society. And what we think of as "free market" is really just norms of trade which are created by our society. There is no reason why the bulk of the billions taken-in by WalMart should go to the Walton family while their employees live on food-stamps - that is just…

It's interesting that you faced this issue and came away with the exactly wrong conclusion. Economics is, at root, a physics problem. There's no way to get around that. Every aspect of the field comes down to asking questions about physical resources and their uses. People can attempt to ignore the fact that economics is a special application of physics, but they can't escape the consequences of ignoring reality fore…

What you are referring to is more the traditional distinction between the materialists (i.e. Marx) and those that believe in market forces (i.e. Smith).

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#137

Post by merpnderp »

danieltillett wrote: post #133
yummyfajitas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard left wing complaint is that billionaires don't have enough lavish parties, but instead reinvest their wealth in new productive capacity. See, e.g., Picketty, Krugman, or anyone favoring stimulus directed at the bottom of the income distribution. Do you dispute this? As for erasing class distinctions, consider the possibility that we already have. Imagine telling a person in 1915 about the world today; th…

I think you are describing the upper middle income rich. The ultra rich are nothing like us in the main.

They use the same iPhone, have access to the same chemo, and watch the same movies. The only difference is they fly in private planes instead of commercial, drive high end Mercedes instead of Fords, live in mansions instead of apartments. But their HVAC cools just the same as my window unit, it's just quieter. Yeah, they have lots of things we don't. But the difference is smaller than between a rich person in 1915 and a poor person today.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#138

Post by merpnderp »

grecy wrote: post #62
RodericDay wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zizek phrased it kind of nicely once, in a way that stuck with me. He probably borrowed from somewhere, and I'll continue to lossily reproduce whatever the sentiment was, but it goes something like this. How is it possible that we are completely and utterly optimistic about breaking all sorts of physical barriers, like landing on Mars, and reusing rockets, and communicating worldwide via little handheld microcomputer…

> what's up with the bounds of our imagination? How come they're limitless when it comes to facing off against gravity, and completely defeatist when it comes to erasing class distinctions? In my experience, that's only true in America. People in Canada, Australia, England and Argentina and perfectly happy to discuss and debate ideas and ways to remove (or drastically reduce) class distinctions. Politicians even enac…

The US redistributes enough money to the poor to make them richer than the UK, and likely many other wealthy nations in the world. It's not like the US is some Mad Max universe where the poor are forgotten and left without aid.

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#139

Post by merpnderp »

thatcat wrote: post #123
Turing_Machine wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think modding this down is going to make those 100 million corpses go away? 'Cause it isn't.

you didn't provide a capitalism death count to compare it to

The 100 million civilians murdered by communist/socialist governments is well documented. What are the numbers for capitalist governments murdering their civilians without even the semblance of a fair legal system?

Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom

#140

Post by merpnderp »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #72
natrius wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism happened. It killed lots of people, and made radical changes in the social order unappealing to most. Now ideas don't just have to sound plausible, but you also have to prove that they won't lead to the deaths of millions.

Have you heard of social democracy, i.e. taking those ideas and not implementing them by being a murderous crazy dictator? It's working out just fine for the countries which are consistently ranked as the best to live in in the world. As opposed to the US, which is closer to third world status when it comes to things like low median wage, little to no maternity leave, expensive and poor healthcare system, school shoo…

After government transfers, the bottom income quintile in the US makes more than in the UK and many other wealthy nations. Looking at heart disease and cancer, the US does better, with a less healthy more diverse population than just about every other country (the top ten hospitals with the best cancer survival rates are overwhelmingly in the US), maternity leave may not be mandated, but is available to many if not most. 98% of the US has completed at least 5th grade. And how is the US so different from a social democracy? Massive transfers of wealth to the poor, strong regulations, large government influence in industry, and of course democracy, with strong protections against a "murderous crazy dictator".
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