How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac • Hacker News Board

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#151

Post by mcantelon » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:04 AM UTC

GHFigs wrote: post #136

mcantelon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the minimum, people who wnat to use software more powerful than iPhone apps (Photoshop, music production, programming, etc.).

I don't understand. How does buying an iPad prevent people from using other computers for those purposes, or wanting to, aside from the opportunity cost of actually buying the device? You seem to be talking about things that machines can do, but you're referring to people. If a machine is limited it does not follow to say that the person is limited.

If an iPad is their only computer there they will be limited to functionality avaiable on the iPad unless they shell out for another computer.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#152

Post by chaostheory » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:04 AM UTC

mannkind wrote: post #146

chaostheory wrote: post #6

Unfortunately, this is what people like my mom and my sister want: something dead simple and easy to use like iPhone. Both OSX and Windows still give them a lot of trouble. It's hard to pair both freedom and flexibility with ease of use and simplicity.

Unfortunately? Yeah, how dare they want something different than you!

Yes, it's unfortunate that the system they want comes with apair of handcuffs. I guess there is nothing wrong with it if you don't notice it.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#153

Post by timtadh » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:20 AM UTC

Todd wrote: post #48

I know of no other company that can charge $100 for 16GB of flash memory. Differentiating on real features like 3G is good and expected. Differentiating on commodity hardware like memory is unfair. With the ubiquity of SD and micro SD and need for more and more storage due to the explosion of digital media, they don't even provide a port. Obviously, they don't provide a port because it would destroy their product lin…

My issue is the iPad* is very close to being a good general purpose computer. For a certain class of consumer, it could be there only computer. However, it is crippled by the lack of ports. How are they going to hook up their printer or webcam? It is so close, especially with the keyboard dock. If only they where a little more open with the platform, and had some open ports this thing would be a great computer.

* (terrible name btw, i was sitting with three girls over lunch and looking at the engadget coverage while we ate, when i told them it was called the iPad they cracked up. One said, it must have been a male only committee that picked that name).

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#154

Post by ptomato » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:29 AM UTC

mildweed wrote: post #70

If I were Adobe, I'd be furious. Exclusion of Flash from this platform is a slap in the face, despite Jobs' perspective of how it would break his App Store model. If it weren't for Adobe focusing their Creative Suite development on Jobs' platforms, Apple wouldn't have had the design community's support that it had for so many years. Apple owes Adobe.

If it weren't for Apple, Adobe wouldn't EXIST. Considering what Photoshop was first developed for and solely for Macs for several years. And the only reason Adobe even still bothers to develop for Mac is because of the very high percentage of the design community who are married to their Macs and won't use anything else. If I recall correctly, something like 40% of Photoshop installs are on Macs, which considering the general desktop userbases percentages is fairly dramatic.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#155

Post by Hexstream » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:36 AM UTC

Todd wrote: post #66

jwhitlark wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logical conclusion of the personal computer revolution is the person doesn't control their device?! That's not revolutionary; that's a return to the bad old days...

I guess their 1984 ad campaign was more precient than Steve could have imagined. The surprise is that he is the old guy on the screen. Now, who's the woman throwing the hammer?

The king is dead! Long live the king!

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#156

Post by chaostheory » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:38 AM UTC

fnid2 wrote: post #145

whyenot wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's at all clear that people "went to PCs" because the Mac was proprietary. Macs were also expensive, slow, monochrome, and you couldn't buy them from IBM or Compaq, for example. The elephant in the room is the iPhone, where "circle of one" seems to be working extremely well. Maybe the model just needed some fine tuning.

Macs were also expensive, slow, monochrome, and you couldn't buy them from IBM or Compaq, for example. All of those issues are precisely because the Macs were proprietary. If they hadn't been proprietary, none of the issues that made them lose to PCs would have been issues and they may have won the war. In the 80's, every school bought Apple IIe's, so they had the foot in the door. Then, under the leadership of Mr. J…

Starting off on a tangent, Windows is also proprietary. (MS just licensed off used of Windows)

Going back to the subject, before Steve came back Apple tried the MS game where they licensed everything about the Mac (from hardware to software). This strategy failed miserably; most likely because they were already too late.

Fast forwarding to today, Steve is not the problem. He is the main reason Apple is wildly successful today. If he didn't return and revive Apple with the products under his watch, Apple would most likely be gone. Saying Apple is not successful is like saying BMW isn't successful just because it doesn't sell as many cars as either Ford or GM.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#157

Post by roedog88 » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 1:41 AM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #12

zacharypinter wrote: post #2

This post adequately sums up my concerns. Here we have a device that doesn't support USB thumbdrives, doesn't support dropbox (at least system-wide, I assume the dropbox iphone app would work), is unable to run ruby or any of my other dev scripts/tools, cannot install firefox or firefox plugins, etc. I do not want to see computing head this direction.

My dad, mom, grandma, and grandpa can watch videos, look at photos of their kids/grandkids, send e-mails to their relatives oversees, and read their favorite books on it, all without the need for a "computer-savvy guy" who has to teach them how it works, and fix it when it's broken. In other words, it's a logical conclusion of the personal computer revolution. I understand you need to run your Ruby scripts, but this…

I can see the ease of use argument, and that Apple products certainly do well at that. But, thinking on a longer time line, isn't that target audience shrinking. What is the life expectancy of the pre-computer literate population? How big is this audience now? I'm just asking. I have no idea.

On the other hand, a much larger audience would be the vast unwashed masses in the third world who use cell phones to access the internet. The sales volumes are higher, while the price point is lower... I wonder if Apple would go there, or would they leave that market to others.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#158

Post by stanleydrew » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 2:07 AM UTC

GHFigs wrote: post #134

stanleydrew wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a stretch. When I go to a restaurant I'm choosing a priori to give up control of my possible choices when I decide to go. There's no confusion. If I wanted to have full control I'd stay home and cook. I suppose the argument then is that you choose to limit yourself to what the iPad offers by buying and using one. As long as a priori most people understand what they are getting themselves into when…

The problem is that a lot of people aren't going to understand beforehand the limitations of this device... You seem to be assuming several things: that this is peculiar to the iPad, that people who do understand the limitations also care, and that if they don't make fully informed choices about things they care about that it is someone's fault other than their own. I don't think those are accurate assumptions.

It's most definitely not peculiar to the iPad, and I don't think my statement assumes that. I also don't think it's relevant whether people who do understand the limitations care or not, nor was I assuming that. Once you understand the limitations, you can choose to ignore them and buy the device. A lot of people will do this. Hell I even might! And that's perfectly fine.

But your last point is a good one. And I think it gets to the crux of a lot of the hysteria over this being a "closed system." A lot of consumers aren't very savvy when it comes to complicated electronics. Maybe that's their fault? I don't know. But something in me says it's partially Apple's responsibility to educate people about the devices they sell through proper marketing.

If Apple markets this ethically they won't mislead people into thinking this is a general-purpose computer. Because if people perceive this as a general-purpose computer, they will be sorely disappointed in a lot of ways when they get it home.

So It doesn't have to be entirely the manufacturer's fault if I make an uninformed choice, but I'd argue that it is partially the manufacturer's responsibility to educate me.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#159

Post by sjs » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 2:28 AM UTC

telemachos wrote: post #21

sjs wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing that currently exists is going away even if this becomes popular. Devices that run other systems will emerge with time. Mainly because this does 100% of what most people want to do with a computer.

> Nothing that currently exists is going away even if this becomes popular. I disagree. This sort of device has the very real chance of killing notebook computers. I don't think that desktops are going away any time soon, for two reasons. First, if you are going to work for hours at a time, a big screen and keyboard re far more comfortable and practical. Second, really significant work requires the horsepower of a fu…

I agree with all of that.

But even if for no reason other than a dislike of Apple, there will be people who don't want one of these. There will be competition.

Anyone here on hacker news that is worried about an Apple monopoly in the future because of this should get to work on competing in whichever area they are able, be it the hardware, software, or business side of things.

Re: How A Great Product Can Be Bad News: Apple, iPad, and the Closed Mac

#160

Post by nitrogen » Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 2:29 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #112

Scriptor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netbooks, which are basically the same price or cheaper, can do the same as the above and are much less locked in. More immediately, they also have Flash support, multitasking, and USB ports. People still need more heavy-duty computers to do those other things as well as for non-leisure stuff. The advantage of an iPhone was that it was extremely portable and you could just pull it out on the bus to pass the time. The…

> "can do the same as the above" I heartily disagree. There's a big difference, huge difference between "can barely" and "does it really fucking well". The iPad shoots for the latter (we'll see if it hits), the netbook's mere existence is predicated on the former. If your definition of "can do the same" means "someone willing to bang their head hard enough and willing to live with a substandard user experience can do…

I think there is some collective head-in-the-sand in the geek community because what people apparently want is not at all like what geeks want.

I had an epiphany (albeit a minor one) when thinking about this problem. I asked myself, "Why do I have such a problem with Apple's closed app store?" The conclusion I reached is that a core part of my geek personality involves resisting authority figures that I didn't choose, whether it's manifest through running Linux instead of Windows or starting my own company instead of pursuing a traditional career. I suspect that, to an enterprising and independent geek, accepting Apple's way is like giving up the fight for independence from unwanted authority figures.