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The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

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Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#151

Post by 5F36B5F62640 »

DanBC wrote: post #147
engi_nerd wrote: post #137

Here's what confuses me. What actually happened to her? Without any context, all this can really be is her word against someone else's. She says she forwarded on relevant harassment incidents, but without context, the actual truth of what happened to her is unknown. >Don’t tell people to stay quiet about abuse. This removes them from their support network of friends and family. Didn't they just tell her to stop talki…

> I find it amusing that someone who has written a tool that allows you to filter out a specific block of individuals (as trollish as they may be) can write this post at all. The cynical side of me thinks the attitude shown here is, "Hear me, but here's a way you can systematically ignore people that I fundamentally disagree with". Give me your twitter handle, and your employer's email address, and I'll send 800 deat…

Her blocking tool is idiotic. It blocks people whose only offense it to follow more than one account on Twitter from a small list of accounts that she considers to be GG leaders. It ends up blocking many anti-GG people who are following those accounts because they want to know what their opponents are up to.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#152

Post by engi_nerd »

5F36B5F62640 wrote: post #151
DanBC wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it amusing that someone who has written a tool that allows you to filter out a specific block of individuals (as trollish as they may be) can write this post at all. The cynical side of me thinks the attitude shown here is, "Hear me, but here's a way you can systematically ignore people that I fundamentally disagree with". Give me your twitter handle, and your employer's email address, and I'll send 800 deat…

Her blocking tool is idiotic. It blocks people whose only offense it to follow more than one account on Twitter from a small list of accounts that she considers to be GG leaders. It ends up blocking many anti-GG people who are following those accounts because they want to know what their opponents are up to.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2no4me/im_a...

There's no good mechanism for this case, either.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#153

Post by gravypod »

freebsdgirl wrote: post #135
gravypod wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was a priest who was homosexual, and involved himself with gay-pride rallies on his own time, would you say it is acceptable for the church to excommunicate him since he had "freedom not to associate" with the group? If don't feel that disallowing personal thinking is good for society. I also feel that it is possible for people to agree on some topics while disagree on others. Guilt by association should not…

> the lack of sources provided Sources are: emails between myself, core, and the FreeBSD Foundation. I'm not providing those. A phone call with the FreeBSD Foundation, which I did not record and will not provide. I could mention the names of the people I spoke with in FreeBSD, but why? I could provide the tweets of the guy I spoke about, but to what end? I'm not going to name names. People can find a way to dig it al…

> I could provide the tweets of the guy I spoke about, but to what end?

To provide credit to your claims, otherwise what you are doing is defamatory.

>Sources are: emails between myself, core, and the FreeBSD Foundation. I'm not providing those. A phone call with the FreeBSD Foundation, which I did not record and will not provide.

Sadly, none of that is verifiable from an outsider perspective.

>Instead, I hope people talk about the issues of harassment and legal shadiness regarding trademark claims.

This is the only thing I can claim to have an educated opinion on. Any entity who owns a trademark has the rights to ask you to stop representing their likeness. By using "freebsd" in your name and actively participating in politics surrounding the open source/FreeBSD community, you are representing their likeness and in this case you are not protected by fair use.

For example, I can't make a twitter called TacoBellGuy and post about food related politics. If Taco Bell got upset with me, I'd have to change my name. Very clear cut.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#154

Post by freebsdgirl »

gravypod wrote: post #153
freebsdgirl wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lack of sources provided Sources are: emails between myself, core, and the FreeBSD Foundation. I'm not providing those. A phone call with the FreeBSD Foundation, which I did not record and will not provide. I could mention the names of the people I spoke with in FreeBSD, but why? I could provide the tweets of the guy I spoke about, but to what end? I'm not going to name names. People can find a way to dig it al…

> I could provide the tweets of the guy I spoke about, but to what end? To provide credit to your claims, otherwise what you are doing is defamatory. >Sources are: emails between myself, core, and the FreeBSD Foundation. I'm not providing those. A phone call with the FreeBSD Foundation, which I did not record and will not provide. Sadly, none of that is verifiable from an outsider perspective. >Instead, I hope people…

I've consulted a lawyer. You are incorrect.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#155

Post by vertex-four »

Tomte wrote: post #78
lillian-lemmer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your answer is not to have enforceable routes for women to be safe and respected because nobody can write specifically enough? I run an organization (hypatia.software [Hypatia Software Organization]) where the Code of Conduct is enforced and it is effective .

No, my answer is to have a community where you ban those people without discussing the semantics of some sentence. In the end, it's probably equivalent to your answer. Because when the people in your organization feel someone is harassing people and you decide to kick him out, you're probably simply describing his behaviour and referencing your CoC, but not doing some detailed analysis how and why he did so.

As somebody who has experience moderating groups without explicit rules - the result of this in a group of more than a dozen people is inevitably that some of them will feel that (a) the banning is unfair, no matter how egregious the behaviour, and (b) there should be a set of written rules for the leaders/moderators to follow, so that people understand clearly what is expected of them. You really can't win.

Personally, I tend to steer on the side of a broadly defined CoC backed up with a very clear dispute resolution policy (there's plenty of examples of both of these - Debian has a pretty decent set for large projects). In a functioning community, reaching for this should only be required very rarely, so they shouldn't affect anyone most of the time - and they quite obviously don't in the case of open-source projects, or we'd hear about actual cases where people have been kicked out of projects for very little a lot more than we do.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#156

Post by fleitz »

lillian-lemmer wrote: post #9
draw_down wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He writes such extreme things to get a reaction (and a following of complete morons). Attention is oxygen in that business. Not that that makes it any better of course. Notice how you said it's "almost entertaining", well, that's what he's aiming for.

Don't do this. It's implying that people should just "not be hurt by it and move on." ... That the problem is with the people reacting. Surely, I agree that giving attention to stuff often fuels the flames, but the answer isn't to place the burden on the victims. The answer is to actually DEAL with the issue and have shit HAPPEN to make people (women, trans, queer, minorities) safer!

You can tell from identity politics in the brackets who is people and who isn't people. Why not just say what you mean?

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#157

Post by [deleted] »

lillian-lemmer wrote: post #83
dogma1138 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet you that I've been called "jew" more times than you been called a "tranny" over the internet usually followed by about 20min of heil hitler spam and other funny jokes from various IRC bots, I just shrugged it off....

Every time you step out the door do you wonder if you'll be killed for who you are? Do you worry that you can't go to the police for who you are? Do you ever worry about fighting an entire legal and medical system to be who you are? Etc.

[deleted]

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#158

Post by rrss1122 »

5F36B5F62640 wrote: post #150
Tomte wrote: post #3

She's talking about some guy and his "campaign to legalize rape". I thought she was exaggerating or maybe misunderstanding something. Sure, this guy is probably an asshole, but legalizing rape, come on! I followed the link and... it is kind of almost entertaining. He means it. Literally. You can't stop reading that trainwreck of an argument, because it gets worse and worse. And then you've lost all hope in mankind. I…

> I followed the link and... it is kind of almost entertaining. He means it. Literally. He means it in the same way Jonathan Swift meant that cannibalism should be legalized and the Irish should be allowed to sell their children as food in "A Modest Proposal" [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

It's what one of the comments they quoted at the end said. Terrible, terrible attempt at satire, and he should be mocked for it. But come on, no one is actually for legalizing rape.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#159

Post by rrss1122 »

MaysonL wrote: post #144
andallas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ahh, thanks for clarifying, wasn't sure if you were implying something else. In regards to your question, yes things got bad, unfortunately what is hard to see from the outside, is that the vast majority of the harassment was originally done by outside third parties who just wanted to troll two groups. They harassed some people (mostly women) then said they were part of GamerGate. This wasn't even remotely true, and…

Did anybody in GamerGate ever criticize any male gaming journalists? Citation requested.

They criticized Nathan Grayson of Kotaku for supposedly having relationships with people GamerGate didn't like and writing about them without disclosing said relationships.

Depending on the site you read, it's either a violation of journalism ethics, or GamerGate blowing something out of proportion again. In lieu of a citation, you can google it if you really want.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#160

Post by rrss1122 »

lillian-lemmer wrote: post #126
lillian-lemmer wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please trust me when I say safe spaces are crucial, especially to trans survival. I wish you knew how... devastatingly lonely it can be as an outcast in society. How everyone treats you. Solidarity is really important. Can you also imagine who you are constantly being criticized? Your problems constantly being made out to be false? That you have the burden of proof with everyone because nobody knows your struggle? I…

This may be unpopular opinion, but the fact is that there is just a perspective that you cannot understand through anecdotes or research. The experience of being trans, queer, female, etc., today is not summed up by text. It is the adrenaline and vomit from death threats, it's falling behind at work because of harassment, I could go on and on. Safe places are a way to ensure that everyone at least can truly empathize…

Unquestionably, threats should absolutely be forbidden, and they are. Threatening another person is already a federal crime and anyone receiving threats online should report it to law enforcement so the person making those threats can be dealt with and so that person can't continue to terrorize other people online.

We should feel secure for our lives. Indeed it's one of the inalienable rights defined in the Declaration of Independence: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

What many people now know as safe places, however, overreach their stated goal of providing security for minorities. They sacrifice liberty for life. You can put someone in jail for threatening your life, but you can't put someone in jail (or fire them or ruin their livelihood otherwise) for saying something you don't agree with. If you force someoen to empathize, they aren't truly empathizing, they are remaining quiet for fear of being called a bigot and getting their reputation ruined. They shouldn't have the right to make you fall behind at work because of harassment. Then again, no one should have the right to do that on anyone, no exceptions based on arbitrary classes/categories.

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