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Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

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Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#341

Post by EdiX »

Sanddancer wrote: post #242
incarnated wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me how one can update a Windows system (incl. all installed applications) in a straightforward manner. Windows comes with no package manager, as far as I know.

Yes, Windows doesn't come with a walled app repository. That's one of the benefits -- I don't have to ask Ubuntu and Debian and RedHat and god knows who else, "mother may I" before I write a program. I just do it. Though I do know people who now do get most of their apps from Microsoft's package manager these days.

> I don't have to ask Ubuntu and Debian and RedHat and god knows who else, "mother may I" before I write a program.

You can just offer your own repository and have the package you distribute install it. I think you are confusing linux package managers with appstores.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#342

Post by EdiX »

shmerl wrote: post #145

> Applications (GUI toolkits) must implement their own fonts antialiasing - there's no API for setting system wide fonts rendering. What??! Most sane and advanced windowing systems work exactly this way - Windows, Android, Mac OS X. In Wayland all clients (read applications) are totally independent. That's interesting, I didn't know that. Is that going to be a huge mess after Wayland transition (which is likely to ha…

> What will happen in Wayland case?

Nothing at all. Very few modern applications use server side font rendering anyway, the ones that don't either are obeying fontconfig rules independently already or will keep ignoring them.

It's not even different for Windows and Mac OS X, some programs do their own font rendering that's different from the one provided by the system.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#343

Post by xjia »

colin_mccabe wrote: post #315
xjia wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are those tools?

sparse -- adds annotations to kernel code which can be checked by the compiler. It is a little bit like a parallel type system which provides domain-specific knowledge like "this function takes lock A and then lock B" or "this function runs in interrupt context." See https://sparse.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page kmemcheck -- sort of like valgrind, but for the kernel. CONFIG_FAULT_INJECTION -- inject random fault…

Thanks for the summary.

However, what do we have on the formal proof side?

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#344

Post by Flip-per »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #153

Linux users often take the idea of 'self-examination' way too far and it turns into 'self-disparagement'. The fact is, if you vet your hardware and use a major distro (Ubuntu, OpenSUSE, Fedora) you'll wind up with a perfectly functioning Linux desktop or laptop. You think about it, OSX only runs on a few laptops. Linux runs perfectly on more laptops than exist for OSX. Windows run on many laptops, more often than not…

I spent a whole afternoon+evening reading before recommending my brother a laptop that is a) available where he happened to be and b) would probably just work fine with Linux.

The article discusses several points that would substantially improve Linux. And it addresses your concerns several times, like here:

"There's a great chance that you, as a user, won't ever encounter any of them (if you have the right hardware, never mess with your system and use quite a limited set of software from your distro exclusively)."

Ignoring criticism and possibilities of how to improve Linux ("cause it works for me already") doesn't do any good. IMHO the article is a great write-up that could help to improve these issues in the long run.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#345

Post by veddox »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #247
veddox wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is about self-disparagement, but about holding ourselves to a high standard. I love Linux, and have been using it without major problems for some time now (mainly Ubuntu-based distros). Especially if you are into programming, I'd say it beats MS hands down. However, I do acknowledge that there are still many problems that bar Linux from being an operating system "for the masses" (i.e. all those peo…

> But let's not pretend that "it just works, right out of the box!" It does though. Get an Ubuntu laptop from Dell, it works. Get a Chromebook from Google and friends, it works. Yes, install Linux on a random 5 year old laptop, and you may have problems. Ever built a 'hackintosh'? Same deal. Ever install Windows? It's a pain. As for shell commands, Windows has that. So does OSX. Linux also has GUIs that can install p…

Please don't misquote me. What I actually said was:

> But let's not pretend that "it just works, right out of the box!"(TM) every time. [Emphasis added]

Of course Linux often works. Perhaps even most times. A couple of weeks ago I reinstalled my laptop, switching from Ubuntu to elementaryOS. Took me about two hours (not counting most of the backups). On Windows, I would have needed two days. I have done an OS install dozens of times, with various versions of Windows and various Linux distros. And I find that Linux is often easier than Windows, because you can install all the software from one official repository instead of hunting through the download pages of a dozen vendors. BUT, and here comes the big but - that still doesn't meant that it always works smoothly. (Not that Windows always works smoothly, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about Linux' problems right now.) To claim that there are never problems is simply not true.

About shell commands: of course Windows has those. But when do you ever really have to use them? (If you are a sysadmin, perhaps, but again, that's not what we're talking about. We are just considering "normal" users.) Everything that needs to be done can be done graphically. The various Linux DEs have made a lot of progress in that area in the past few years, but don't kid yourself. There's still a lot you can't do with a GUI.

And on a final (not quite serious) note:

> You have to compare apples to apples.

If I did that, I would never get away from Mac OS X, would I? :D

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#346

Post by peatfreak »

simoncion wrote: post #240
ggreer wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why didn't you return it and get -say- a Thinkpad? The Lenovo X140e is a ThinkPad.[1] I didn't blindly trust Ubuntu's certification. I made sure to get a brand that historically has had good Linux support. I also knew about Nvidia graphics and avoided them. Still, I got burned. I don't doubt your checklist is good advice for buying a Linux laptop, but it's simply too time consuming to check all of those things. Eve…

> The Lenovo X140e is a ThinkPad. Oh, heh. Derp. Edit: I mean to say: My bad. I overlooked that. :( I see at [0] that the only Ubuntu Certified configuration is with a rather ancient pre-installed version of Ubuntu. Did you get the system in that configuration, or did you purchase it and put Linux on it? [1] Regardless. Why didn't you return it and get something that worked ? Curiosity? Cussedness? > [I]t's simply to…

> I find it reasonable to spend between a couple of days to a week researching the suitability of something that I'll use throughout the day, every single day for next three-to-ten years. Perhaps my opinion is atypical.

Aargh, this is precisely the sort of attitude that is causing problems in the first place! Of course some research is necessary prior to any purchase, but the issue here is that clear and correct information doesn't even exist in the first place!!

The expectation of nerds that people have this sort of time to take off simply to get a working computer in this day and age is mind boggling. People shouldn't HAVE to take a week to do research to get basic things like this to work.

It's not reasonable and your opinion is atypical for people who have full time jobs with long hours and families to look after. I really want to use and support Free/Libre Gnu/Linux, whilst still being productive. But many Linux users have better things to do than trawl through lspci, do literature reviews of ancient threads on email lists and bug reports, etc, etc, and then finally somehow manage to design a hardware/software configuration that even mostly kind of works. The very worst thing of all is that the typical Linux nerd thinks that this is normal.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#347

Post by peatfreak »

This is a good opportunity for us to be positive and to list up-to-date resources that clearly list laptops that work on Linux, or what to look for, what models are good and not-so-good, what is Free and mostly-Free, etc, etc. I am looking for a "mostly-Free", modern Gnu/Linux laptop that I can purchase either new or recently second hand but am having a terrible time trying to figure it all out.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#348

Post by ris »

evook wrote: post #27
wvenable wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not uncommon to have to wait minutes for things to settle down after booting and logging in This is no longer my experience with Windows on an SSD. I'm always a bit shocked when I reboot and I'm back at my desktop in under 30 seconds. On a machine without an SSD, I'm annoyed at how slow everything is -- not just booting.

That's actually the reason windows is and will stay my main desktop system. Former Windows 7, now an "unfucked" Windows 10 Enterprise. It's just smoother than OSX or Linux Desktop and I always test some linux distros if I get new Hardware. Last time in novembre I upgrade to i7-6700k, Titan X, Samsung 950Pro 1TB. Of course it's necessary to have always at least one linux based server vm running I use putty to connect…

"IMHO X11 needs to be replaced as fast as possible."

X11 has very little to do with any of your complaints.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#349

Post by ris »

audeyisaacs wrote: post #91
sandGorgon wrote: post #61

I don't understand - I never see a mention of the biggest annoyance to developers on linux : consistent copy paste. It is a cognitive exercise to copy from the terminal or paste to the browser...or (the horror) copy from the terminal and paste on vim. It does not help that this works beautifully on the Mac. Is this not an annoyance to anyone else...and more importantly, considering all distros are now using libinput,…

Highlight to copy, middle-click to paste. Works every time for me. Obviously, if you want to paste into vim you have to be in insert mode.

Yes, except when you have to select something in between the time you copy & paste, e.g. change focus to the URL bar of a browser. Then ctrl-C is your friend, and works everywhere except the terminal.

But the terminal is a special case when it comes to copy/paste and always will be a little weird on any platform. Especially when it comes to line-wrapping in full-terminal applications like vi.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#350

Post by chx »

yohui wrote: post #328
chx wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Intel make USB bluetooth sticks? If my laptop didn't come with a combo miniPCIe card I doubt the necessary antenna is there. In a desktop, I looked for mPCIe - PCIe x1 adapters with lots of antennas but I can't really find any in low profile. So... how did you do that?

For desktop, perhaps the Gigabyte GC-WB867D-I? Specs: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5157 Price: https://pcpartpicker.com/part/gigabyte-wireless-network-card... It's basically an Intel 7260 Wireless-AC/Bluetooth chip plus a PCIe adapter.

Thanks! However, http://www.amazon.com/forum/-/Tx18X5FNV15HHU8/ref=ask_dp_dpm... it looks like this does not come with a low profile bracket. And, are two antennas ... enough? Just my 6300 in my laptop have three.
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