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Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

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Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#71
post #64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Witcher 1 is not available for Linux. And good luck running witcher 2 on the super low end APU from AMD with mediocre Amd drivers.

> Witcher 1 is not available for Linux. It is playable in Wine, so running Linux on PS4 can enable tons of games both native and Wine compatible (the demo even shows an emulated game which isn't native for Linux either). No idea how good 3D acceleration there will be of course.

Yeah tons of games are running in WINE, but many of them have small bugs there and there (I use WINE all the time). Witcher 1 had some bugs related to the health bar not being visible at some point.

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#72
post #68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Witcher 1 is not available for Linux. And good luck running witcher 2 on the super low end APU from AMD with mediocre Amd drivers.

According to publicly available information PS4 APU is comparable to 7790 and this is how it's can perform on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf0qdt9HZCQ Also since this test Gallium Nine only become better for running things in Wine.

> PS4 APU is comparable to 7790

Yeah, but the APU drivers may not be comparable. That's one piece we won't know until we see actual benchmarks with it, if they manage to get 3D acceleration working.

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something to keep in mind is that it's becoming a trend that companies sell the systems at a loss (Notably, I think the only company that doesn't is Nintendo). Especially for the beginning of it's life, this is only practical if it's a closed system - Because if it wasn't, then they're essentially just offering the hardware at a huge discount to people who have no intention of buying any games, and the games is where…

but I remember that being part of the reason why the 'Other OS' feature was removed from the PS3 - Places/People were buying them up and running Linux on them because they were such a good deal for the hardware. Wait, really? The PS3 was outclassed by generic PC hardware pretty quickly, and wasn't much faster than a netbook unless you were writing some seriously multithreaded or PS3 GPU-specific code. I never heard o…

They were a popular choice for building supercomputers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/23/science/an-economical-way-...

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something to keep in mind is that it's becoming a trend that companies sell the systems at a loss (Notably, I think the only company that doesn't is Nintendo). Especially for the beginning of it's life, this is only practical if it's a closed system - Because if it wasn't, then they're essentially just offering the hardware at a huge discount to people who have no intention of buying any games, and the games is where…

but I remember that being part of the reason why the 'Other OS' feature was removed from the PS3 - Places/People were buying them up and running Linux on them because they were such a good deal for the hardware. Wait, really? The PS3 was outclassed by generic PC hardware pretty quickly, and wasn't much faster than a netbook unless you were writing some seriously multithreaded or PS3 GPU-specific code. I never heard o…

Agreed. They removed Other OS three and a half years after launch. That's well out of the initial discounting period.

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#75
post #71
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Witcher 1 is not available for Linux. It is playable in Wine, so running Linux on PS4 can enable tons of games both native and Wine compatible (the demo even shows an emulated game which isn't native for Linux either). No idea how good 3D acceleration there will be of course.

Yeah tons of games are running in WINE, but many of them have small bugs there and there (I use WINE all the time). Witcher 1 had some bugs related to the health bar not being visible at some point.

> Witcher 1 had some bugs related to the health bar not being visible at some point.

That was fixed a while ago. The only bug that I still encounter there is this one: https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/773623/linux/charac...

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something to keep in mind is that it's becoming a trend that companies sell the systems at a loss (Notably, I think the only company that doesn't is Nintendo). Especially for the beginning of it's life, this is only practical if it's a closed system - Because if it wasn't, then they're essentially just offering the hardware at a huge discount to people who have no intention of buying any games, and the games is where…

but I remember that being part of the reason why the 'Other OS' feature was removed from the PS3 - Places/People were buying them up and running Linux on them because they were such a good deal for the hardware. Wait, really? The PS3 was outclassed by generic PC hardware pretty quickly, and wasn't much faster than a netbook unless you were writing some seriously multithreaded or PS3 GPU-specific code. I never heard o…

Looking into it, it seems it was more specialized uses that people were using them for, not just generic hardware - I remembered that point wrong. The fact that they foot the bill for a lot of the hardware is still true though.

Being able to easily copy and run games is an entirely fair point, but I felt it was separate from what I (And who I responded to) was getting at. An open-hardware machine running steam still has DRM on the games - And it's a bit of a given that most devs probably wouldn't want their games on platforms that didn't at-least try to have this (Though there are notable exceptions). Having open hardware, and having open software are really two different things, and it's a distinction that's only really come apparent in the later gen systems.

In the past, game systems were fairly close to being basically embedded systems, with the games running on the bare metal, so generally speaking having open-hardware in such a situation makes piracy much easier, because the only protections are in the hardware itself. Current gen systems actually have full OS's and a kernel-mode user-mode split, like a regular PC. Even if the hardware was open, without access to kernel-mode while the OS is running piracy isn't possible. I will concede that opening the hardware possibly creates an attack vector for the kernel though, so from that perspective it really isn't something that they want to have to deal with - And they don't gain anything from allowing it.

That said, if you look at Steam, AFAIK they have no real big issues with piracy. Why that's the case is debatable, but you can obviously make it work without having to lock-down the hardware.

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#78
post #72
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to publicly available information PS4 APU is comparable to 7790 and this is how it's can perform on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf0qdt9HZCQ Also since this test Gallium Nine only become better for running things in Wine.

> PS4 APU is comparable to 7790 Yeah, but the APU drivers may not be comparable. That's one piece we won't know until we see actual benchmarks with it, if they manage to get 3D acceleration working.

True, but I mean if they (or someone else) will manage to adopt it for radeon driver properly games like Witcher 2 will be playable.

Re: Fai0verflow: Linux on the PS4 [video]

#79
post #38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wine runs the binaries. It's much, much faster than Emscripten.

Wine is faster than Emscripten because asm.js is a slow target, not because HLE produces fundamentally better results than transpilation. Wine has a variant, libwine, that can linked into a Windows binary at compile-time, replacing that Windows binary's linkages to Windows libraries with linkages to Wine. If you have the opportunity, this is always the more processor-efficient way to go (and I'm surprised so many com…

I wouldn't say that whether the shim libraries are built into the emulator or statically linked into the transformed output is very important. There are really two mostly orthogonal axes here:

- Instruction set: JIT (emulators, Rosetta) vs. static recompilation (only niche projects when the source is a machine ISA, but arguably Java AOT compilers, OdinMonkey, etc. count) vs. doing nothing because the source and target have the same ISA (Wine, VM software for the most part).

- APIs: HLE (emulate semantics) vs. LLE (emulate hardware). The more abstract the API, the better the former works, and vice versa. If you are not emulating things like interrupts and register pokes, that is HLE by definition.

In some cases you can /directly/ translate source API usage into target API usage without any shims, but only for relatively simple APIs. For anything complicated, the semantics are likely different enough that transforming calls to it would require complicated global analysis, which would be quite pointless from a performance perspective unless the API is called ridiculously often.

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