Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 181 posts

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#41

Post by simonh »

ThomPete wrote: post #19
bpodgursky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

I would love for you to explain why Apples shouldn't be paying taxes in the US instead of Ireland I simply don't get it.

If a phone's components are made in Korea, Japan and China, assembled in China, then sent on Greek owned ships to Europe where they are sold for Euros by European stores to European citizens and paying European sales taxes, how much tax is due in America?

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#42

Post by VeejayRampay »

So basically Apple was evading taxes while benefitting from all the infrastructure that said taxes help pay for. And when they got caught, they got to negotiate what percentage of what they actually owed they would pay in the end. That'll teach them :-/

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#43

Post by Oletros »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #35
Oletros wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Countries will make up taxes for foreign companies just because they can. Microsoft EU settlements being a prime example. What has to do Microsoft N with taxes?

Windows 7 N exists because of the 2004 European Commission decision. That decision being a 497 million Euro fine. The fine was stupid when it was issued and it's ramifications were stupid when they forced Windows 7 N into existence. If you view the fine as a tax it all makes far more sense. The fine is merely a tax that is the cost of doing business in Europe. Microsoft is willing to pay it because they still net pro…

> The fine was stupid when it was issued and it's ramifications were stupid when they forced Windows 7 N into existence.

This is just opinion

> If you view the fine as a tax it all makes far more sense

It is not a tax, so it doesn't make sense

> The fine is merely a tax that is the cost of doing business in Europe

Wrong, the fine is a consequence of breaking competition laws

> And Europe certainly has no issue demanding money from an American corporation.

The majority of the fines have been given to European companies, more than 80% of the money.

>Nation states demanding unreasonable things from foreign companies is nothing new. There's many a ruling that would have gone another way were the defendant a local entity.

Reality says that this is not the case, but if you have more data, I will look at it

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#44

Post by junto »

derefr wrote: post #39
junto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I'll add another 'no' to you both. If a company is operating in a certain country offering goods and services to the population of that country then that country has the right to levy taxes upon the sales of those goods, and upon the operating profits of that company operating within that country. Global corporations fiddle this by moving money around so it appears that they don't make a corporate profit in that…

> A simple way to solve the problem is to levy an internet sales tax, which is the same percentage as the corporation tax that these companies should have paid if they were operating solely in that country in the first place. Ah, but how does something like Google work, then? They don't sell a product to people all over the world (where tax can be collected); people all over the world are the product, and they sell t…

Goods and services. In terms of their core business, the money they charge British companies to advertise on the Google network should be taxed and paid to the UK government. I don't understand the problem?

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#45

Post by beatpanda »

iofj wrote: post #29
ThomPete wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love for you to explain why Apples shouldn't be paying taxes in the US instead of Ireland I simply don't get it.

We all know the answer. Because all governments feel they should spend that money instead of Apple. And they can take it, so they should. And the more left-leaning part of the aisle has this idea that they will get to decide what that money will be spent on. So they support this. (I'm not rightist, in fact I'm probably extreme left by American standards, but I just don't believe the government is on the people's side…

Yeah, or, Apple benefits handsomely from money spent on their behalf by the federal and local governments (e.g. the roads and public transit infrastructure serving their headquarters, the funding for the public universities and subsidized loans for private universities from which they draw their employees), but apparently doesn't feel any obligation for funding those benefits.

It's not about "feeling that they can spend the money better", it's that government already spent the money, and Apple (and other companies) benefited from it, and now they need to pay their share.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#46

Post by rayiner »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
jph wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

Even accountants don't just plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get an answer. There are judgment calls and a range of reasonableness even within the Accounting rules.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#47

Post by beatpanda »

Good. All the companies listed in the headline are sitting on piles of cash, benefiting massively from U.S. federal and local government spending on their behalf, and paying a lot less than what they actually owe on profits earned in the United States. All of them should face massive, confiscatory fines.

I'm also sympathetic to the argument that the United States should lower its corporate tax rate, in exchange for corporations actually paying at that lowered rate, but because U.S. politics are broken, this is never going to happen. The next best thing is legal judgments against tax dodgers, and I'll take it.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#48

Post by nickpsecurity »

pen2l wrote: post #4
rjayatilleka wrote: post #2

Forbes doesn't even work with an adblocker for the last couple weeks. If you want to hear about the actual settlement, here's a ReCode article: http://recode.net/2015/12/30/apple-to-pay-348-million-to-set... Not sure if the article brings up the same discussion and conclusions as the Forbes one though.

Forbes is using the 'FuckAdblock' thing... so yes, it doesn't work when you're using Adblock. But if you install the FuckFuckAdblock extension, you should be able to see the article. Here's a link to the extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/fuckfuckadblock/hb...

I thought you were kidding until I clicked the link. Probably named with intent to inspire comments just like yours. Lmao.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#49

Post by threeseed »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #35
Oletros wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Countries will make up taxes for foreign companies just because they can. Microsoft EU settlements being a prime example. What has to do Microsoft N with taxes?

Windows 7 N exists because of the 2004 European Commission decision. That decision being a 497 million Euro fine. The fine was stupid when it was issued and it's ramifications were stupid when they forced Windows 7 N into existence. If you view the fine as a tax it all makes far more sense. The fine is merely a tax that is the cost of doing business in Europe. Microsoft is willing to pay it because they still net pro…

> If you view the fine as a tax it all makes far more sense

Which you shouldn't since it's a ridiculous premise.

Microsoft was found to have acted in an anticompetitive manner and for that they have to pay a fine. Not all multinational companies who exist in the EU have to pay an ongoing fine. It's not the cost of doing business. It's the cost of breaking the law.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#50

Post by guelo »

bpodgursky wrote: post #8

It's great how we're living in a world where tax codes are so idiotic and complex that it takes long lawsuits to figure out what tax is actually due. It's not about following the letter of the law; it's about following the letter of the law, avoiding the court of public opinion, and coughing up whatever is necessary to stop the complaints when some politician wants to distract people from their incompetence and whip…

It's only complicated because the corporations hire hordes of top-notch lawyers to figure out the optimal structure for paying the least amount of taxes by exploiting all loopholes and coming as close as possible to skirting the laws. If the corporations optimized for simplicity the corporate structures would be much different.
Post reply on HN