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Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

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Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#21

Post by gertef »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
jph wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

Until we have a One World Order with no nations, what do you propose?

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#22

Post by zepto »

ThomPete wrote: post #19
bpodgursky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

I would love for you to explain why Apples shouldn't be paying taxes in the US instead of Ireland I simply don't get it.

Because the money is not made in the US

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#23

Post by cosmie »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #12
jph wrote: post #3

Apple is doing the right thing by paying this to Italy. Next up (I hope) is a similar agreement regarding Apple, the U.S., and Ireland. The primary goal is to get Apple to pay each U.S. taxes on U.S. sales: when Apple sells an iPhone in the U.S, the profit should be realized in the U.S, not in Ireland in a Irish shell company. Then do the same for all other countries, so Apple pays fair taxes on fair profits to the r…

The primary goal is to get Apple to pay U.S. taxes on U.S. sales. The linked Forbes article is a great introduction, but unless I'm reading it wrong, it covers how Apple avoids US taxes on foreign sales, not US taxes on US sales. How exactly are they avoiding US taxes on US sales? The US practice of taxing entities (corporations and people) on their global income based on citizenship instead of residency is just stup…

Due to the way they leverage their foreign subsidiaries, they're able to play accounting games that drastically lower the perceived (and taxable) profit of those US sales. Such as this mentioned at [1]:

"ASI [an Irish Apple subsidiary] buys Apple products from a Chinese manufacturer, resells them at a “substantial” markup to other Apple affiliates and retains the profits, the report said."

[1] http://www.macworld.com/article/2039299/senate-report-apple-...

Not that they're the only ones to play this game. A FMCG company I'm familiar with does something similar by having billions in raw and finished good materials owned by a Switzerland-based subsidiary for tax purposes.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#24

Post by junto »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
jph wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

OK, I'll add another 'no' to you both. If a company is operating in a certain country offering goods and services to the population of that country then that country has the right to levy taxes upon the sales of those goods, and upon the operating profits of that company operating within that country.

Global corporations fiddle this by moving money around so it appears that they don't make a corporate profit in that country, hence they pay no corporation tax. For example, companies like Vodafone continuously buy other companies that are making losses deliberately to offset their profit making mobile operators.

A simple way to solve the problem is to levy an internet sales tax, which is the same percentage as the corporation tax that these companies should have paid if they were operating solely in that country in the first place.

This would have some added advantages to companies that have bricks and mortar stores, who currently struggle to survive and compete with online competition. They provide the customers advice and the ability to try on their goods and then the customer price compares and buys cheaper online.

Whilst customers are benefiting from lower prices in the model we have today, we face the real risk that in twenty years you will only be able to buy a book from Amazon. There won't be any other book store.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#25

Post by [deleted] »

bpodgursky wrote: post #8

It's great how we're living in a world where tax codes are so idiotic and complex that it takes long lawsuits to figure out what tax is actually due. It's not about following the letter of the law; it's about following the letter of the law, avoiding the court of public opinion, and coughing up whatever is necessary to stop the complaints when some politician wants to distract people from their incompetence and whip…

[deleted]

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#26

Post by bryanlarsen »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #20
v0x wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I'm using uBlock Origin 1.5.2 and the site refuses to load.

I'm on uBlock Origin 1.5.2 and cannot access Forbes as well.

I'm on uBlock Origin and got a page telling me to turn off my adblocker to access the content. I did so, and it worked.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#27

Post by hyperbovine »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
jph wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

> You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it.

But we have that. Take profits and multiply by 0.35. Done.*

The fact that Apple effectively pays less than %10 corporate tax rate in the US is, I think, what the parent poster was referring to.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#28

Post by stefantalpalaru »

> Italian prosecutors have been investigating allegations that Apple failed to pay corporate taxes to the tune of 879 million euros, sources told Reuters earlier this year.

So they negotiated that down to about 40%. Yes, that's how it works for the big guys, they get to negotiate their taxes.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#29

Post by iofj »

ThomPete wrote: post #19
bpodgursky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

I would love for you to explain why Apples shouldn't be paying taxes in the US instead of Ireland I simply don't get it.

We all know the answer. Because all governments feel they should spend that money instead of Apple. And they can take it, so they should.

And the more left-leaning part of the aisle has this idea that they will get to decide what that money will be spent on. So they support this. (I'm not rightist, in fact I'm probably extreme left by American standards, but I just don't believe the government is on the people's side anymore)

Of course there's a million different ways to say this, many are more polite, but it all boils down to this. They want money, they have the ability to take it.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#30

Post by npizzolato »

zepto wrote: post #22
ThomPete wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love for you to explain why Apples shouldn't be paying taxes in the US instead of Ireland I simply don't get it.

Because the money is not made in the US

Is all that money actually made outside the US? Or is it made outside of the US in the same spirit as how Hollywood movies never make a profit?[1][2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting

[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-holl...

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